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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:05 am  
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"What's wrong with America" is on display pretty clearly in this thread.

Given the uncertainty of the posters it's obvious most of you didn't even watch the video. Instead you just start in with your uninformed opinions without even making the slightest attempt at gaining a better understanding of the issue. The link is even in that damn thread, you don't have to do any work.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:28 am  
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I wish I had the Adam Carolla rant about this when he was on Love Line.


"this" being peanut allergies


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:27 am  
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Dvergar wrote:
Given the uncertainty of the posters it's obvious most of you didn't even watch the video. Instead you just start in with your uninformed opinions without even making the slightest attempt at gaining a better understanding of the issue. The link is even in that damn thread, you don't have to do any work.


I noticed this too haha - I included the link, and a related news article because I figured people would actually watch it, and then give their opinion after being presented with the facts. The video is helpful because it has interviews from a protesting parent, a health/allergy expert, and the superintendent of the school district in question.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:17 am  
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Having only read the first few replies I am going to toss in my opinion. I have two children in public school. This year the primary school (k-2) eliminated one of the kids favorite foods. They had these pre-made pb&j sandwiches with no crust that the kids absolutely loved. Some upiddy bitch that drives this gas guzzling piece of ford shit (yes I have come face to face with the beast0 complained in the middle of the lunch room that her kid had peanut allergies and that the school was full of horrible people because they served pb&j, you know the shit kids absolutely love. So the second month or so of school they had to ditch the sandwiches and send this very carefully written letter home with every kid requesting that we not send peanut butter to the school if at all possible. So what they are asking is that because one jabba-the-bitch complained the other 300 kids at the school cannot eat what they want. Now, keep in mind, that for years this school has had a standing policy that if a child has any allergies, peanut or otherwise, the school has special meals prepared and has a section that is just off the end of each table for allergies. The table is actually considered a cool thing by the kids but if you want to eat with your friend that has allergies you cant take anything they are allergic to over there. My daughter is a very picky eater so I replied to the letter that I would not be able to refrain from sending her without a pb& j sandwich because she would not eat much of anything else and that she did not like the majority of the meals the school fixes. But even she has asked for different foods from time to time so she could sit with her friend that is allergic to peanuts. Kids do the strangest things, lol.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:17 am  
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I hadn't watched the video - I made my judgement based on the facts as they were presented by others. In general, I don't like to watch videos.
I sat and watched the video in full. My opinion is completely unchanged. In fact, I feel more strongly than before that this child's parents are batshit crazy, they're paranoid, overprotective hypochondriacs.

Many people have food allergies of some sort. I've never seen a house with a "NO PEANUTS ALLOWED" sign on the door. Expecting other kids to WASH OUT THEIR MOUTHS, wash their hands, all this, to "accomodate" this one child is ridiculous and without scientific basis. As I said, my childhood friend was allergic to peanuts, when our families went on outings and such I never had to do any of that. It wasn't seen as necessary. Like I said, we often went to this Chinese restaurant that we really liked, I often ordered food with tons of peanuts in it, and it wasn't a problem. His father was a pathologist and my father teaches pediatric medicine at a respected medical school and is a director for the healthcare program of a medium size state so I don't think you can get two opinions more informed than that.

The mother of one of the children they spoke to explicitly stated, with evident sincerity, that she wants this to be resolved and the child to be able to attend school with her peers. Another parent raised an excellent point which is that this "needs to stop, where will it stop?" - she's dead right, the child needs to learn to take responsibility for its own well-being, not live life in a bubble. The real villains here are these crazy parents and the school officials that are gutlessly facilitating their ridiculous behavior. The allergist is just a prevaricating self-promoter - handwashing to prevent cold and flu? Give me a break. The only thing she said of value was that this is a chance to teach these kids to work together and be tolerant - but part of working together and being tolerant is setting boundaries and being assertive, understanding the fine line between tolerance and capitulation.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:49 am  
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Aestu wrote:
Actually, they can. The law is, food products that contain peanuts must be so marked, for this very reason.

To do so is part of the responsibility that comes with raising a child with this particular disability.

Is it the responsibility of every single parent in the kid's class too? What if they just don't give a shit and they give the kid peanut products and that kid shares with the girl in question, (at the very least) putting her in the hospital?
Quote:
It is in childhood a child should learn to be mindful of his difficulties, whether it's a physical handicap, an allergy, whatever, and take the appropriate precautions. This is something all normal kids with allergies learn to do.

Yeah, I think that this is the case if the kid's older, but this girl's not even out of first grade yet. Right now, the kid can't legally (or probably in general) make informed decisions about what is offered from other kids, etc.

I think its really telling when the reporter asks "What happens if you get your way [getting the changes reverted] and the kid with the allergy accidentally eats peanuts and dies?" and the parent completely dodges the problem. The parents don't give a shit about the life of another child because their children have to (god forbid) LEARN TO WASH THEIR HANDS and ACCOMMODATE OTHERS WITH MEDICAL ISSUES.

This is all, of course, assuming that the kid will either be severely hospitalized or die from peanuts, which I honestly think is real, considering the shitstorm they're weathering just so their kid is safe.

EDIT:
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You never hear conservatives introducing retarded legislation requiring everyone to appease the minorities at the cost of the liberties of the majority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics ... ing-effect

Let's not forget the fights against abortion, gay marriage, and the opposition to the civil rights movement back in the '60s. Gay people and unions aren't really a majority, but its still the idea of repressing a minority to appease a slightly larger minority (which, coincidentally, votes for your dudes).


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:51 am  
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Battletard wrote:
I'm with Aestu and Eturnal and Azelma and company on this one. Just seems like more liberal bullshit to me..and I'm pretty liberal in many ways. You never hear conservatives introducing retarded legislation requiring everyone to appease the minorities at the cost of the liberties of the majority.

I use the term legislate loosely, to include creation of rules and policies..and not strictly limited to legality.


Well, though I think the solution they've created for this problem is absurd and far from elegant or even reasonable, the whole point about an egalitarian society based on inalienable rights and things of that nature is that the minority is SUPPOSED to be protected from the whim of the majority.

This child has a right to an education provided at public expense, and we shouldn't take that away from her. But there are other means of providing it that don't fuck everyone else over. If she has just a mild peanut allergy, there are reasonable steps that can be taken to have her in school. If she needs to live in a bubble to survive, they shouldn't try to make the entire world her bubble, it's just not reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:59 am  
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Will someone explain to me as to how not eating peanut products for one meal in the day and washing your hands twice a day is some sort of unreasonable repression? I'd be with you guys if people have to be decontaminated during school hours (I mean hell, the only thing that was weird was washing out mouths, but apparently that's already overwith), but I'm pretty sure if you were the parents in this situation you'd do the exact same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:00 am  
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Mns wrote:
Is it the responsibility of every single parent in the kid's class too? What if they just don't give a shit and they give the kid peanut products and that kid shares with the girl in question, (at the very least) putting her in the hospital?


First off, the kid can just sit at the hypoallergenic table and all is well. Second, what other kids bring to school is irrelevant. The child should be taught discipline and to refuse snacks from others.

Mns wrote:
I think its really telling when the reporter asks "What happens if you get your way [getting the changes reverted] and the kid with the allergy accidentally eats peanuts and dies?" and the parent completely dodges the problem. The parents don't give a shit about the life of another child because their children have to (god forbid) LEARN TO WASH THEIR HANDS and ACCOMMODATE OTHERS WITH MEDICAL ISSUES.


The fears of a hypochondriac are by definition unrealistic.

The other kids DON'T have to wash their hands to safeguard this kid's life. Failure to wash hands isn't a danger to this child any more than to any of the many, many people who have this allergy.

Options have been presented to fully allow the child to be safe and well regardless of what the other children do. These parents are victimizing everyone else as a shill for their own anxiety.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:01 am  
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Aestu wrote:
Callysta wrote:
The outrage over handwashing had me chuckling. My kids wash their hands all the time. Before lunch and after any meal or snack, and at other random times of the day. Frequent handwashing can be good (as long as it isn't antibac soap) as it helps to combat the spread of bacteria. Kids should be washing their hands! And it doesn't take 30 minutes to have kids wash their hands and rinse their mouth out. Our children's preschool does something similar (purely for hygeinic reasons) and it takes them about 5 minutes to get the entire classroom done. The time element is being grossly inflated.


This is very wrong because while incidental sickness is highly unlikely to kill or cause serious illness to a child, excessive cleanliness/lack of exposure to bacteria weakens the immune system and ensures the child will get sick much more often as an adult.

Children are naturally disgusting by design for a very good reason.

Dirt and bugs from other naturally disgusting kids will not kill a non-compromised child. Later in life, an opportunistic infection that an adult with a stronger immune system would survive could well prove lethal to an individual who was a victim of overprotectiveness as a child.

Also, the only reason for frequent handwashing WITHOUT antibacterial soap is hypochondria. Water is sticky, and all organisms need water to live. Sinks, even if they appear clean, are cesspools of disease. If you are not using antibacterial soap, all you are doing is exposing yourself to bugs, providing the bugs with a means of adhering to your hands, and with what they need to live, picking up whatever bugs whoever else used the sink had, and dropping your own off in turn.

If you want to clean your hands in a meaningful and effective way, either use antibacterial soap, or just DRY your hands without washing them.

Anyway, back to the topic, if these parents want a "peanut free environment" it is for them to have their child sent to one. It is not for other parents to suffer their compulsive behavior. Azelma is right on that this entitlement BS is bringing down this country and creating a generation of weaklings.


Go take a microbiology class. Re-read your post. Discover how wrong you are.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:06 am  
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Mns wrote:
Will someone explain to me as to how not eating peanut products for one meal in the day and washing your hands twice a day is some sort of unreasonable repression?


Because it's a huge waste of time and inconvenience and it's UNNECESSARY. If everyone put upon the classroom on the most specious basis in these sorts of ways, the world would stop. It's unjust to put upon others because one can't control one's fear. Which is Azelma's point.

Mns wrote:
but I'm pretty sure if you were the parents in this situation you'd do the exact same thing.


No, on a factual basis.

Akiina wrote:
Go take a microbiology class. Re-read your post. Discover how wrong you are.


I have, thanks. I got a B. Sup?
I've taken quite a few biology courses, actually. I've also spent a lot of time working with plants in professional and other environments.

I enjoyed grafting plants and gardening as a child; I tended the school garden in elementary school and it wasn't a problem there either.

Go on, Akiina. Going to do more than taking an insulting snipe? Going to substantiate your snide comment?


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:09 am  
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Aestu wrote:
First off, the kid can just sit at the hypoallergenic table and all is well. Second, what other kids bring to school is irrelevant. The child should be taught discipline and to refuse snacks from others.

I agree with this, but for right now, the kid barely knows how to write, the school shouldn't be forced to say "your kid can handle it herself" when they're going to be the ones to blame if something goes wrong. Like I said before, if this was a couple years down the road, I'd say its unnecessary. Right now, however, its probably a good idea.

Quote:
The fears of a hypochondriac are by definition unrealistic.

So I see you've been completely ignoring the fact that there could actually be a life or death situation about this, considering since you ate Amerinese (do you get it? its a food joke because General Tso's is an Americanized Bastardization of grease and brown sauce) food around some kid you used to know, peanut allergies can only be as bad as his and nobody can actually die from it. I shouldn't be surprised that you're basing your entire argument on this one kid you know (and thus, by proxy, everyone with a peanut allergy is just like him), but I'm still flustered.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:17 am  
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Mns wrote:
I agree with this, but for right now, the kid barely knows how to write, the school shouldn't be forced to say "your kid can handle it herself" when they're going to be the ones to blame if something goes wrong. Like I said before, if this was a couple years down the road, I'd say its unnecessary. Right now, however, its probably a good idea.


Again...hypochondria/paranoia isn't effective because the threats are IMAGINED.
Paranoia is self-defeating because fixation on unreal threats results in neglect for real ones.

It is the caretakers' responsibility to ensure the child eats at the appropriate table and that table is suitable for the child. It is not necessary to enforce a schoolwide clean zone.

Quote:
So I see you've been completely ignoring the fact that there could actually be a life or death situation about this, considering since you ate Amerinese (do you get it? its a food joke because General Tso's is an Americanized Bastardization of grease and brown sauce) food around some kid you used to know, peanut allergies can only be as bad as his and nobody can actually die from it. I shouldn't be surprised that you're basing your entire argument on this one kid you know (and thus, by proxy, everyone with a peanut allergy is just like him), but I'm still flustered.


I like how you make assumptions about something of which you know absolutely nothing. I'd be delighted to elaborate.

His mother was ethnic Chinese (and to a great extent she was a typical "tiger mom" who enjoyed reading Amy Tan novels and cheap pulp romance novels, and pressured her son to learn fencing and play at the national level so he could lock down admission to a good college). She was close personal friends with the manager of this restaurant who was also a Chinese national, which was why we went there. It was a good, classy, authentic Chinese restaurant with high quality ingredients. To this day I remember how crispy and savory the pecans were in the prawns with lobster sauce, which was my favorite dish. I remember she would order those big, thick Chinese soup because it was what she was accustomed to enjoying all her life.

No offense Mayo, but one difference between you and I is that eating good, quality, classy food was very important to my parents and they made an effort to cultivate an appreciation as such in their sons. Wasn't just Asian food - we went out to eat a lot, at many different kinds of restaurants, least of all Asian.

I don't see how insulting their cuisine is relevant since peanuts are hardly expensive or associated exclusively with authentic or classy cuisine.

Why would this kid's peanut allergy be any different than anyone elses? As has been said - this is a fairly common allergy.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:35 am  
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Aestu wrote:
Why would this kid's peanut allergy be any different than anyone elses?

I actually got a headache from reading this. A full-blown, physical headache. I'm also pretty sure this sums up you as a person and your automatic disqualification from this thread.

PS:
Quote:
It was a good, classy, authentic Chinese restaurant with high quality ingredients. To this day I remember how crispy and savory the pecans were in the prawns with lobster sauce

1) I never argued about the quality of the restaurant.
2) Pecans aren't native to Asia, so how they can be incorporated in "authentic Chinese cuisine" is beyond me (hell, I've never even seen pecans in any sort of legitimate chinese restaurant).
3) Just because the guy's a Chinese national (and I'm sure, can cook the shit out of things) doesn't mean that everything he makes is a traditional chinese hallmark. Things like "Miscellaneous Fried Meat in Brown Sauce" (amping up or toning down the use of a bunch of misc ingredients like peppers, citrus, and ginger incorporates something like half of the menu at a chinese takeout place) sell and they sell well. I'm not faulting the guy and its a great business move considering I don't see many white people eating a lot of the authentic fare (there have actually been a couple places i've been to that feature both a "normal" menu and a specialized menu that isn't advertised that needs to be asked for specifically).

I mean, I guess you can argue that General Tso's is authentic chinese food, but then again, you'd have to argue with all of China and the couple of places that actually want the credit for creating it:

Wikipedia wrote:
General Tso's chicken (sometimes Governor Tso's chicken, General Tao's chicken, General Tsao's chicken, General Gao's chicken, or General Gau's chicken) is a sweet-and-spicy, deep-fried chicken dish that is popularly served in American Chinese and Canadian Chinese restaurants. The origins of the dish are unclear. The dish was previously largely unknown in China and other lands home to the Chinese diaspora.[1]

The association with General Tso Tsung-tang, or Zuo Zongtang, a Qing dynasty general and statesman, is unclear. The dish is atypical of Hunanese cuisine, which is traditionally very spicy and rarely sweet. Instead, the dish is believed to have been introduced to New York City in the early 1970s as an example of Hunan- and Szechuan-style cooking.[1][2] The dish was first mentioned in The New York Times in 1977.[3]


I wouldn't put it past you to edit Wikipedia to make yourself right wrote:
Taiwan claim

As documented by Fuchsia Dunlop in the New York Times,[1] one claim is that the recipe was invented by Taiwan-based Hunan cuisine chef Peng Chang-kuei[6] (a.k.a. Peng Jia) (Chinese: 彭長貴; pinyin: Péng Chánggùi), who had been an apprentice of Cao Jingchen's, a famous early 20th century Chinese chef. Peng was the Nationalist government banquets' chef and fled with Chiang Kai-shek's forces to Taiwan during the Chinese civil war.[6] There, he continued his career as official chef until 1973, when he moved to New York to open a restaurant. That was where Peng Jia started inventing new dishes and modifying traditional ones; one new dish, General Tso's chicken, was originally prepared without sugar, and subsequently altered to suit the tastes of "non-Hunanese people." The popularity of the dish has now led to it being "adopted" by local Hunanese chefs and food writers, perhaps as an acknowledgment of the dish's unique status, upon which the international reputation of Hunanese cuisine was largely based.[1][4] Ironically, when Peng Jia opened a restaurant in Hunan in the 1990s introducing General Tso's chicken, the restaurant closed without success because the locals found the dish too sweet.[4]

New York claim

Peng's Restaurant on East 44th Street in New York City claims that it was the first restaurant in the city to serve General Tso's chicken. Since the dish (and cuisine) was new, Chef Peng Jia made it the house specialty in spite of the dish's commonplace ingredients.[1] A review of Peng’s in 1977 mentions that their “General Tso's chicken was a stir-fried masterpiece, sizzling hot both in flavor and temperature”.[7]

New York's Shun Lee Palaces, East (155 E. 55th St.) and West (43 W. 65th St.) also says that it was the first restaurant to serve General Tso's chicken and that it was invented by a Chinese immigrant chef named T. T. Wang in 1972. Michael Tong, owner of New York's Shun Lee Palaces, says, "We opened the first Hunanese restaurant in the whole country, and the four dishes we offered you will see on the menu of practically every Hunanese restaurant in America today. They all copied from us."[2]

The two stories can be somewhat reconciled in that the current General Tso's chicken recipe—where the meat is crispy fried—was introduced by Chef Wang, but as "General Ching's chicken," a name which still has trace appearances on menus on the Internet. However, the name "General Tso's chicken" traces to Chef Peng, who cooked it in a different way.[4]


I'm sure that none of this will sway you, however and, much like my brother, will continue to argue things you have literally no idea about because you're magically infallible. Please, continue.


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 Post subject: Re: This is What's Wrong with America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:35 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
First off, the kid can just sit at the hypoallergenic table and all is well. Second, what other kids bring to school is irrelevant. The child should be taught discipline and to refuse snacks from others.


She'll refuse snacks with peanuts knowing she's allergic, obviously. However, what if other kids eat their peanut snacks...or their food that was cooked in peanut oil or whatever...get it on their hands, don't wash their hands...then go and touch the girl in a game of tag, or any one of the other 1000 reasons that kids could come into contact with one another. The girl then breaks out in hives or something. That's the issue at hand. Although you seem to think this is unfounded, but you don't really know how allergic she may be. Just coming into contact with some peanut residue could set off a horrible allergic reaction.

Aestu wrote:
The other kids DON'T have to wash their hands to safeguard this kid's life. Failure to wash hands isn't a danger to this child any more than to any of the many, many people who have this allergy.


Forcing kids to wash their hands just doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.

I think you are assuming that her allergy is not as bad as it might be. Truthfully, none of us can KNOW for sure how bad her peanut allergy is. True, maybe her parents are over-reacting. But you are writing it off because you don't think there's any possibility that it could be a life or death allergy. How do you know this?????????

Aestu wrote:
Options have been presented to fully allow the child to be safe and well regardless of what the other children do. These parents are victimizing everyone else as a shill for their own anxiety.


I feel like "no snacks in the classroom" and "wash your hands twice a day" could hardly be qualified as "victimizing."


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