hrm...

Baneleaf · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:12 pm

There were two wide spread "theorys" about the monkey factor. One was indeed that researchers decided to fuck a monkey, then fuck each other, then come home and fuck other people. This has been shot down several times but comes up in the middle of any HIV/AIDS discussion. The other is that the researchers were exposed to the monkeys in a cage and were either bitten or scratched and the disease spread. There is actually a third very rare theory that one of the researchers took part in some ritual that involved eating the flesh of the infected monkeys and because he had no antibodies built up the disease took hold. The monkey bite scenario tends to be the most accepted of these stories, but no one will admit to it being true or not.

Oh and yeah, Magic got super meds because he has money, lots of money. He may be able to surpress the full blown AIDS for the rest of his life, or at least until his bank account runs dry.

Aestu · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:20 pm

I'm not convinced beyond a doubt that HIV wasn't engineered. It seems curious that a virus just happens to become a pandemic almost overnight, and almost exclusively, amongst two of the most despised groups in society.

I don't necessarily believe it to be the case that HIV was created to wipe out blacks and gays, but I don't believe the theory can be dismissed out of hand either. The alternative explanations are not sufficiently convincing to be conclusive. Too many pieces of the puzzle are missing.

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:21 pm

Mns wrote:

Jubbergun wrote:

20 years of FDA/WHO testing and bureaucratic nonsense?

Your Pal,
Jubber

Yeah, if by "nonsense" you're talking about "making sure the medicine doesn't kill people and/or cause horrible side effects".

There's a whole testing and scheduling system that I learned when I was in a psych class once, but for the life of me I forget the details.

AIDS Patient: Hi, I have this terminal disease that's probably going to kill me in six years. Could I please have that drug will cure me?

FDA: No. We have to test for ten years to make sure it doesn't kill you or give you the shits.

AIDS Patient: I'm going to die in six, and I'll take the diarrhea over not breathing.

FDA: Fuck off, we have to follow regulations/procedures.

There aren't a lot of side effects that are worse than taking a dirt nap, and even with modern treatments, which I understand are amazing, time is a factor. I'm not saying we should just go "here's a pill," pop it on the market and take no precautions, but the FDA process isn't just excruciatingly long, it's also extremely expensive, which drives up the costs of medications.

Your Pal,
Jubber

Aestu · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:28 pm

Dvergar wrote:

AIDS has been a 'thing' for a very long time, it just didn't affect Americans until the 80s (and there were infections before the 80s, the fact that people don't die from AIDS but from opportunistic infections means there was no single cause of death to point to one underlying disease). It's explosion had to do with proper social climate. Look at cholera, before everyone started cramming into overcrowded cities with horrible sanitation it wasn't as much of a worry. It wasn't just suddenly created in the 1800s, it was just the proper social conditions to allow for the bacteria to rapidly spread.

This is a poor analogy. Lots of people living in close proximity won't cause outbreaks of HIV as with diseases like cholera, TB, typhus, leprosy or plague.

Jubbergun wrote:

AIDS Patient: Hi, I have this terminal disease that's probably going to kill me in six years. Could I please have that drug will cure me?
FDA: No. We have to test for ten years to make sure it doesn't kill you or give you the shits.
AIDS Patient: I'm going to die in six, and I'll take the diarrhea over not breathing.
FDA: Fuck off, we have to follow regulations/procedures.
There aren't a lot of side effects that are worse than taking a dirt nap, and even with modern treatments, which I understand are amazing, time is a factor. I'm not saying we should just go "here's a pill," pop it on the market and take no precautions, but the FDA process isn't just excruciatingly long, it's also extremely expensive, which drives up the costs of medications.

Do you have an actual example of this happening - of people dying to diseases that are treatable because of the FDA?

What you don't grasp is that those regulations are there because experience proved them necessary.

Before we had the FDA, there was nothing to prevent the sale of snake-oil treatments or unsafe medications.

Latrile.
Antimony.
Thalidomide.

That is why we have the FDA.

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:31 pm

Aestu wrote:

Jubbergun wrote:

AIDS Patient: Hi, I have this terminal disease that's probably going to kill me in six years. Could I please have that drug will cure me?
FDA: No. We have to test for ten years to make sure it doesn't kill you or give you the shits.
AIDS Patient: I'm going to die in six, and I'll take the diarrhea over not breathing.
FDA: Fuck off, we have to follow regulations/procedures.
There aren't a lot of side effects that are worse than taking a dirt nap, and even with modern treatments, which I understand are amazing, time is a factor. I'm not saying we should just go "here's a pill," pop it on the market and take no precautions, but the FDA process isn't just excruciatingly long, it's also extremely expensive, which drives up the costs of medications.

Do you have an actual example of this happening - of people dying to diseases that are treatable because of the FDA?

What you don't grasp is that those regulations are there because experience proved them necessary.

Before we had the FDA, there was nothing to prevent the sale of snake-oil treatments or unsafe medications.

Latrile.
Antimony.
Thalidomide.

That is why we have the FDA.

Dvergar · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:43 pm

Aestu wrote:

This is a poor analogy. Lots of people living in close proximity won't cause outbreaks of HIV as with diseases like cholera, TB, typhus, leprosy or plague.

If a societal changes result in a much better environment for a disease, a previously rare disease could suddenly kill millions and seem to appear out of nowhere. Our society has engaged in behaviors that favor spread of hiv/aids, mainly relaxed attitudes towards sex and different types of sex and increase in the use of blood transfusion.

Also, those people who are dying and want a cure would have no problem signing up for the trials, thus both getting the medicine and determining it's safety. There are much worse things than dying in six years, and while our understanding of medicine has increased to the point that a new pill isn't going to cause all of your bones to turn to rubber, there are still a lot of very bad side-effects.

Eturnalshift · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:46 pm

Strange... I recall a thread recently which moved towards a theme of, "It's my body. I can do with it what I want." If someone wants to willingly subject themselves to experimental treatments in hopes to save themselves, despite the unknown side-effects involved... shouldn't they be allowed? It is there body, after all...

Dvergar · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:50 pm

Eturnalshift wrote:

Strange... I recall a thread recently which moved towards a theme of, "It's my body. I can do with it what I want." If someone wants to willingly subject themselves to experimental treatments in hopes to save themselves, despite the unknown side-effects involved... shouldn't they be allowed? It is there body, after all...

Quote:

those people who are dying and want a cure would have no problem signing up for the trials, thus both getting the medicine and determining it's safety

Funny though, I remember reading a thread about how people should just deal with whatever negative consequence comes from their bad decision. I mean fuck em I don't have aids...

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:52 pm

Dvergar wrote:

Eturnalshift wrote:

Strange... I recall a thread recently which moved towards a theme of, "It's my body. I can do with it what I want." If someone wants to willingly subject themselves to experimental treatments in hopes to save themselves, despite the unknown side-effects involved... shouldn't they be allowed? It is there body, after all...

Quote:

those people who are dying and want a cure would have no problem signing up for the trials, thus both getting the medicine and determining it's safety

Funny though, I remember reading a thread about how people should just deal with whatever negative consequence comes from their bad decision. I mean fuck em I don't have aids...

So what you're saying is, we're all inconsistent asshats?

Your Pal,
Jubber

Aestu · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:35 pm

Dvergar wrote:

Aestu wrote:

This is a poor analogy. Lots of people living in close proximity won't cause outbreaks of HIV as with diseases like cholera, TB, typhus, leprosy or plague.

If a societal changes result in a much better environment for a disease, a previously rare disease could suddenly kill millions and seem to appear out of nowhere. Our society has engaged in behaviors that favor spread of hiv/aids, mainly relaxed attitudes towards sex and different types of sex and increase in the use of blood transfusion.

HIV isn't SARS or TB - diseases that still run rampant when you put too many people too close for too long, even with modern technology.

Chlamydia, herpes and syphillis aren't out of control because of population density. If what you say is true, China and Japan would have STDs running amok and Russia would have the lowest rate of most industrialized countries. The opposite is true.

Dvergar wrote:

Also, those people who are dying and want a cure would have no problem signing up for the trials, thus both getting the medicine and determining it's safety. There are much worse things than dying in six years, and while our understanding of medicine has increased to the point that a new pill isn't going to cause all of your bones to turn to rubber, there are still a lot of very bad side-effects.

I recall a few years back some people died of liver dysfunction when testing a hypertension medication.

It's not a simple as "people can do what they want with their body". Researchers would sell victims the moon to run experiments on the most specious scientific basis if they could (and they did, before there were laws against it).

People's desperation would be exploited, and that would be not only immoral but bad science.

Fantastique · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:41 pm

Viruses aren't alive. Can't kill that which is not alive.

Dvergar · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:42 pm

Aestu wrote:

If a societal changes result in a much better environment for a disease, a previously rare disease could suddenly kill millions and seem to appear out of nowhere. Our society has engaged in behaviors that favor spread of hiv/aids, mainly relaxed attitudes towards sex and different types of sex and increase in the use of blood transfusion.

The point wasn't density = aids explosion. The point was changes in a society can produce favorable conditions for a disease, said disease would flare up and seem to come from nowhere.

Monotheist · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:43 pm

Aestu wrote:

I'm not convinced beyond a doubt that HIV wasn't engineered. It seems curious that a virus just happens to become a pandemic almost overnight, and almost exclusively, amongst two of the most despised groups in society.

I don't necessarily believe it to be the case that HIV was created to wipe out blacks and gays, but I don't believe the theory can be dismissed out of hand either. The alternative explanations are not sufficiently convincing to be conclusive. Too many pieces of the puzzle are missing.

I agree with this.

Aestu · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:44 pm

Dvergar wrote:

The point wasn't density = aids explosion. The point was changes in a society can produce favorable conditions for a disease, said disease would flare up and seem to come from nowhere.

Sure, that's scientific fact. Such an explanation is just one theory amongst many whether that's how HIV came about, though.

Eturnalshift · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:53 pm

Every year we discover new animal species. I'm sure we discover plenty of new illnesses each year, too, onset by viruses, bacteria, etc. Why does HIV/AIDS have to be engineered? Can't we just say, "Oh shit, we didn't know this was here before XXXX year?"

Bucket Guild | FUBU BH Forums

hrm...

Who is online