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I was called a pussy for using the term 'Enhanced Interrogation Techniques' when, according to reports, those EITs included methods other than Waterboarding. When the CIA says they did get information via EITs, one can assume that is wasn't only waterboarding; therefore, information was likely gathered in ways that wasn't 'torturous' and to make the claim that all EIT is Torture is laughable.

SIGINT isn't just wiretapping. SIGINT is the umbrella for COMINT (Communications Intelligence) and ELINT (Electronics Intelligence), which can include picking up radio signals, wire tapping, intercepting e-mails, determining who sent them, from where, using what methods, etc. The government (Air Force, specifically) has some pretty high-tech gadgets used for monitoring this type of activity. Anything not hand delivered with a courier is capable of being intercepted.

TS Information is given that classification by a person; however, the average PI isn't going to have access to that data. There is a lot of it out there and it's been collected for a long time. The most a PI can get is whatever someone on the ground says or whatever they see with their eye. Also, they can only use information that is available at the time since they don't have a library of data which can show the transition of data over time.

Satellite Data (which I should've included surveillance aircraft like UAVs) is used for getting near real-time data about a specific area using sensors not limited to camera images. When I punch my address in Google Maps I have data that is over three years old; doesn't show any renovations, landscaping, etc. Also, Google maps isn't capable of looking at the dimples on a golf ball from space. Google maps is a great resource for people like us, but the data gathered by the government (and exploited by people like Image Analysts which there are a lot of) is of higher quality and importance than you apparently know.

HUMINT does include covertly talking to people but it also involves taking prisoners and interrogating them, managing and relaying the movement of enemy forces and ground troops gathering information on things that they see and do on the ground. There is a lot more to this, too. Again, you're not understanding the greater picture.

PS: I've been working with the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency for awhile. I kinda think I know a bit more than just talking out my ass...


That's not how it was done, though. Results are results. Your guess that some PIs could've found OBL the year he attacked us isn't based on anything other than speculation.


Yea, they were waterboarded a lot. Like I said, it was a last resort for them. Some people break faster than others. If there was a #7 to that list, maybe they would've talked sooner... but god forbid anyone do what it takes to extract information... I'm sure they'd hate to see you cry over it some more.


Relative to real forms of torture... yea, it is tame. (When I say real, I mean the kind of shit you'd find in a middle-eastern prison or in some POW camp in Vietnam.)

Either you didn't pay attention to the discussion, or you are willfully ignoring the context. During the Battle of Trenton, the Colonial Army fought the Prussians and treated them like they would any other professional army. They didn't resort to barbarism, they didn't massacre them, they didn't torture them.



There you have it. The Founding Fathers drew a stark line between these "cruel and perfidious foreign mercs" and the Redcoat soldiers. [/quote]

That quote says very little about the opinions of mercenaries. The quote is not about how horrible Mercenaries are, it's a quote about how He (King George) is coming to "compleat the works of death, etc." Again, context is important.



I wouldn't say it never happened. That doesn't make torture for information acceptable, it means they were wrong to do it...which is the whole point.



You just going to keep concocting wild improbable scenarios or are you going to add something substantive?

Dvergar /
Quisling

It's a real form of torture. Very clever at making the "public at large" believe that it is tame.

No shit. I already said it was torture but compared to what other torture methods exist, waterboarding is tame. What is so hard to understand about that?

lol I just typed in my address in google earth and my favorite raft ever is floating in my pool

it popped last summer

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

It's tame for the torturer and the spectators.

Not the victim.

I'd rather get my dick cut and passed through my left ear from my right ear.

Here's a little experiment you can try to test the rationale:

Wrap a bag on your head
Jump in a body of water and keep your head underwater
Report back with any negative feelings plus your estimation of added stress from having it forced upon you

gonna try it this summer.

should someone be with me? I learned to drown-proof myself back at camp and am a very able swimmer, but kinda nervous

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

You can have someone waterboard you and see "how long you can last" or whatever you want to know:

Grab a beach towel and fold it so that it's only slightly larger than your face and has several plies for thickness
Prepare a bucket of water, cold but not ice-cold
Find two stick-like objects, preferably heavy for noise
Optional: very loud music/noise in the room
Lay down on a table, flat or angled, doesn't matter
Hold the sticks in your hands, you are to drop them when you want the experiment to stop
Have your friend:
Put the towel over your face
Instruct/warn about what he's about to be doing
Pour water from the bucket onto the nose/mouth area -- gently/slowly but surely
Look out for the sticks leaving the grasp of your hands -------> stop immediately

They didn't have a reason to, and at that point in history, war was considered "gentlemanly". That European attitude of "chivalry" suffered clinical death in 1914.



The specifics of the scenario don't matter because (setting aside the inefficacy of torture) that is the moral dilemma here.

The question of whether and under what conditions two wrongs make a right is one of the most fundamental human dilemmas there is. And it's one faced by basically everyone at some point in their life; perhaps not so vividly or so clear-cut, but part of maturity is sorting out one's value system: which values we put first above all else.

You say you would never commit an inherently unethical act to serve an ethical purpose. Like I said, that's just not how life works.

Let me put it to you this way: How do you define that which is unethical? And do you believe that ethical correctness is black and white, or does it come in shades of grey?



That's not what it says, you're totally changing the meaning to suit your debunked argument.

That paragraph doesn't say, "The British Army" or "King George III's thugs" or whatnot are coming. The Declaration consists of a list of grievances these hicks have against the King, and this specific grievance is about the indignity of being put down by foreign mercs. The paragraph emphasizes the barbarity of their actions, something characteristic of mercs of every era (and that is why they are not subject to the laws of war). King George also sent British armies over, but the delegates choose to call attention to the mercs because it's relevant.

If it wasn't relevant, it wouldn't have been mentioned. This document wasn't drafted on a whim.



What proof do you have that high-tech gizomology was more useful in finding a guy in an unwired suburban home than talking to his wife and courier?



Case in point. The goal isn't to simply hurt people. That is the point of waterboarding, to hurt people. The goal is to get information and torture has never been an effective means of doing so.



Every term you mentioned is elementary, common knowledge and in the public domain. You aren't a terrorist catcher so your opinion is no more informed than anyone else's.



No one cares about non-objectionable methods. Saying, "But we do other things than torture people!" is like the Mafia saying, "But we do other things than sell drugs!"

Let me ask you this:
What is your definition of an "EIT"?
What is your definition of torture?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You were called a pussy for trying to justify torture as something else by changing its name. You want it to sound palatable, because that way we're still the good guys. You're still doing it.

Pussy.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Yep. In the history of the two wars, there was no use of gadgets in gathering intel which led to OBL. Instead, this guy is the one we should be thanking.

PS: They he used bicycles, pencils and paper. Good goin', sleuth.

So elementary that you barely has enough understanding of the scope... still, the scope of the things you know (and the things that I can talk to you about) are limited to that which is in the unclassified public domain.

[/quote]
My definitions of EIT are those which have been released by the CIA to extend your normal interrogation proceedure to include (but not limited to) the list of techniques I listed before. My definition of torture is the same as anyone elses - causing severe pain (mental and/or physical) in order to extract information. Slapping someone in the face, palming a stomach or grabbing them by the shirt (all included in the CIA's list) aren't likely to cause severe mental or physical pain; therefore, they're not torture in my book. (What that means to the lawyer-in-training is EIT isn't torture. EIT is EIT, which includes techniques that are torturous, and others that aren't. If you think a slap to the face is torture then you're a MEGA PUSSSSSSY!!!)

That's a picture of an acapella group and a sergeant/boss that never left the office.

I think you need to work on your investigative skills.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Fixed before you posted.

Well then, there you go, no one cares about EIT, all we care about is torture.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.