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Usdk · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:50 pm

My point is mainly about shitty majors. Say someone goes to school to learn sanskrit. If they dont find a job as a translator, all they can do is teach. Going to school to learn a subject thats only merit is teaching other idiots taking a shitty major to grow up and not get a job outside of academia.

whereas scientists can make a difference, shitty majors are a waste of time, rooms, money, and it runs a risk of having how many thousands in default loans because the space cadets can't find a job translating sanskrit.

Laelia · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:00 pm

Usdk wrote:

My point is mainly about shitty majors. Say someone goes to school to learn sanskrit. If they dont find a job as a translator, all they can do is teach. Going to school to learn a subject thats only merit is teaching other idiots taking a shitty major to grow up and not get a job outside of academia.

whereas scientists can make a difference, shitty majors are a waste of time, rooms, money, and it runs a risk of having how many thousands in default loans because the space cadets can't find a job translating sanskrit.

If students are being mislead about their job prospects that can be a problem, although it's not unique to liberal arts programs. Still, colleges teach these programs because there's a demand for them, just like any other business. Nobody "needs" to own an iPad or to watch a movie or attend a concert, but the companies that offer these products are quite successful because people buy them anyways. I don't see why colleges arguably following the same business model makes them less a part of the "real world".

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:08 pm

Laelia wrote:

They make it in the part of the world they're supposed to make it in - the teaching college part. But what is the "real world" according to you?

This is in no way comprehensive, but in the 'real world,' I don't become practically un-fire-able just because I managed to hold the job the first two or three years without being a fuck-up. In the 'real world,' you have to continue to not be a fuck up (which I'm sure a lot of professors manage just fine). Most of us out in the 'real world' think tenure is serious bull shit.

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Mns · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:13 pm

SPOILER: You think tenure is bullshit because you don't have it.

EDIT: Tenure also makes sense in a place where you make progressively more money the longer you work there. That way people can't fire you because a kid fresh out of college is cheaper. Not like education is swimming in money anyways, considering tax cuts are more important than the education system to a lot of people.

Usdk · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Defend tenure, mayo.

Laelia · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:40 pm

Jubbergun wrote:

This is in no way comprehensive, but in the 'real world,' I don't become practically un-fire-able just because I managed to hold the job the first two or three years without being a fuck-up. In the 'real world,' you have to continue to not be a fuck up (which I'm sure a lot of professors manage just fine). Most of us out in the 'real world' think tenure is serious bull shit.

If you want a tenured job, feel free to apply for one. Let us know how it goes.

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:41 pm

Tenure is bullshit whether I have it or not. I might not be as inclined to publicly transmit that opinion were I the recipient of said policy, but me not saying it was bullshit wouldn't make it any less bullshit.

That said, there were/are some good reasons for tenure (academic integrity, for starters), but like most policies/systems that address some concern(s), it gets abused.

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Jubber

Laelia · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:47 pm

Jubbergun wrote:

Tenure is bullshit whether I have it or not. I might not be as inclined to publicly transmit that opinion were I the recipient of said policy, but me not saying it was bullshit wouldn't make it any less bullshit.

That said, there were/are some good reasons for tenure (academic integrity, for starters), but like most policies/systems that address some concern(s), it gets abused.

How often does it actually get abused, though? Universities are not legally obliged to offer tenure to professors and most college-level teaching staff in the US don't have it. If abuse of the system was actually a serious problem they wouldn't continue offering it.

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:49 pm

Laelia wrote:

If abuse of the system was actually a serious problem they wouldn't continue offering it.

That is so 180 degrees out of phase with how things work down here that I can barely believe I have to point out how wrong that is.

Your Pal,
Jubber

Usdk · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:51 pm

WELFAAAAAAAAAARE ring a bell?

Laelia · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:14 pm

Usdk wrote:

WELFAAAAAAAAAARE ring a bell?

Welfare works entirely differently from employment. The government is committed to providing welfare to anyone who qualifies. The situation with academic employment is rather different; in the US, there are only enough faculty positions for something like 20% of PhD graduates. The employer has the power in this situation - unless you're in the absolute top tier of candidates, if you want a job you have to take what's offered to you. As well, people go into academic careers because they have a passion for what they do. The time and expense of getting a PhD and then going through poorly-paid postdoc positions before you even get a shot at a permanent position isn't worth it otherwise.

Aestu · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:37 pm

At the college and graduate level, tenure is a good system that protects educators from whims.

At the elementary and high school level, it's totally fucked up.

Aestu · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:40 pm

Laelia wrote:

This is a different discussion entirely, and I can't really address critiques of US liberal arts colleges. Furthermore, the specific tattooed guy I was talking about is a science prof, and a rather good one at that. However, even if a college degree isn't worth much, I'm not sure how that makes what colleges do any less "real world". Whatever it's value, there's a lot of time and money tied up in higher education. Many medical treatments prescribed by doctors don't work well, and I doubt many people would argue that everything lawyers do contributes to the betterment of society. All of these are still considered professional jobs, though, which was the original point of the discussion.

The underlined section demonstrates how lacking your understanding of this issue is.

You aren't qualified to voice an opinion.

Laelia wrote:

They make it in the part of the world they're supposed to make it in - the teaching college part. But what is the "real world" according to you?

The world that creates that which is intrinsically valuable and thus keeps the system going.

Laelia · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:49 pm

Aestu wrote:

The underlined section demonstrates how lacking your understanding of this issue is.

You aren't qualified to voice an opinion.

What issue? This whole conversation stems from Usd suggesting that universities weren't part of the real world. I've spent longer in university than anyone else here, I think I'm reasonably qualified to discuss the subject.

Quote:

Laelia wrote:

They make it in the part of the world they're supposed to make it in - the teaching college part. But what is the "real world" according to you?

The world that creates that which is intrinsically valuable and thus keeps the system going.

What is intrinsically valuable about what anyone does? People only need food and shelter to survive. Are farming and construction the entirety of the "real world"?

Usdk · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:53 pm

I rephrased to mean liberal arts in particular. I've never shit talked the pursuit of knowledge in science, mathematics, and other "brain" subjects.

liberal arts is mostly "heart" shit that really doesn't contribute to anything beyond entertainment in the real world. (by entertainment i mean literature, film, music, dance, etc.)

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