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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:53 pm  
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I don't think France needs protectionist laws to continue selling Camembert to its own population for like 3 euros a wheel, when the equivalent Californian artisan cheese (which doesn't see exportation outside the USA anyway) is like 25 fucking dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:54 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
The thing is though... the government telling people how to grow crops and make food wouldn't be that bad. At least the laws would be on the books and the buck would stop at the voting box.


The only regulations that governments need are for safety and accurate labelling practices. As you said, quality should sell itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:54 pm  
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As i understand it, the microquakes that are going off all the time in california can make a decent wine much better than if it fermented in a more stable area.

thats what i heard anyways, something to do with oxyidation.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:12 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
I don't think France needs protectionist laws to continue selling Camembert to its own population for like 3 euros a wheel, when the equivalent Californian artisan cheese (which doesn't see exportation outside the USA anyway) is like 25 fucking dollars.


Then this is unnecessary legislation.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:13 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
As i understand it, the microquakes that are going off all the time in california can make a decent wine much better than if it fermented in a more stable area.

thats what i heard anyways, something to do with oxyidation.


Sounds like BS pop science.

Has nothing to do with that and everything to do with more heat, more water, and lower humidity. Most of CA, including virtually all agricultural areas, are tectonically stable. The fault line is just off the coast and has almost no effect 50 miles inland.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:27 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Almost anything that can be grown in France can be grown better in California simply because the climate is better and there is more water.

Who said anything about better? I said proper.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:36 pm  
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Here's how I see it:

Champagne was originally a variety of wine made by the eponymous town. Eventually, the term came to refer to any such beverage. Today, there are many champagnes, of diverse style and quality.

The fact that Dom Perignon (which is still produced in Champagne) and that $10 swill you buy at the booze store are still, generically, referred to as champagne doesn't somehow prevent the elite producers in Champagne from capitalizing on their product.

So now we have, say, Roquefort. It refers, like champagne, to a particular kind of cheese made in a particular way. And like champagne, this particular variety was indigenous to a region but today is produced by the same scientific method all over the place.

But as with champagne, there are certain producers whose name and region are honored above others. No one can take that from them but themselves - that is the place of copyright law. If you label your CA-made Roquefort with the name of some great French farm, you will get sued and jailed just as surely if you label your champagne that you made with corn syrup Dom Perignon. That is why we have laws against fraud, false labelling, and copyright infringement.

But then let's say that the people in Champagne all of a sudden want to make a cash grab and decide to force heritage status on champagne. So what, suddenly that $10 swill is now contraband unless it's called "sweetwine" or something? How does that benefit anyone?

To circumvent such a law, in principle all rival producers would have to do is relabel their product. So in the best case, the law is ineffectual. The law could only be effective if it actually prevents viable products from coming to market.

But why do that? Surely, in the case of champagne, it's not necessary...why? Because Dom Perignon sells itself. Now, if these cheeses can't do the same, then their problems are entirely of their own making.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:37 pm  
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Mns wrote:
Who said anything about better? I said proper.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:38 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Mns wrote:
A blend of generations of tradition, strict regulations, and the proper climates to create good products and ingredients (ex. hops can't be grown in warmer regions).

There are also generations of tradition in other countries than the ones you listed. Regulations seem irrelevant unless you think that people can only make fine foods if the government tells them how. Proper climates for growing ingredients are found in far larger areas than in the countries you listed, and where ingredients don't grow well locally they can often be imported without a loss of quality.

Its a blend of everything. For example, the American beer scene has a lot of great lagers out there, but they haven't benefited from the hundreds of years of trial and error with the Germans. In fact, high quality beer is a relatively new idea in the states (microbreweries didn't really go into full swing until the 80's). Even then, breweries aren't subject to (or haven't adopted to fit) the German Purity Laws. The Italians also bring a lot to the wine table, but their warmer climate doesn't allow for the same types of wines as the french.

And yeah, freshness means absolutely everything. If it wasn't that big of a deal, why don't wineries just buy their grapes instead of spending thousands of dollars to grow their grapes on site?

I suppose that you'd be right if there was a place with the exact same traditions, climate, elevation, amount of sun, equipment, and water as the places I listed, but I don't think there's anything like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:42 pm  
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Mns wrote:
And yeah, freshness means absolutely everything. If it wasn't that big of a deal, why don't wineries just buy their grapes instead of spending thousands of dollars to grow their grapes on site?

I suppose that you'd be right if there was a place with the exact same traditions, climate, elevation, amount of sun, equipment, and water as the places I listed, but I don't think there's anything like that.


The very fact you do not know the answers to these questions (and there are definitely answers) demonstrates your profound ignorance of the topic you are making an effort to appear snobbish about.

Mns wrote:
For example, the American beer scene has a lot of great lagers out there, but they haven't benefited from the hundreds of years of trial and error with the Germans.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:03 pm  
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I decided to stop arguing you (as much as a copout as it looks like, I'm getting a headache) because I remember you said this:
Aestu wrote:
I don't enjoy wine or other alcoholic beverages, but if I did, I'd definitely agree.


I'm not going to argue the quality of products with people who don't know what they're talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:12 pm  
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Mns wrote:
Its a blend of everything. For example, the American beer scene has a lot of great lagers out there, but they haven't benefited from the hundreds of years of trial and error with the Germans. In fact, high quality beer is a relatively new idea in the states (microbreweries didn't really go into full swing until the 80's). Even then, breweries aren't subject to (or haven't adopted to fit) the German Purity Laws. The Italians also bring a lot to the wine table, but their warmer climate doesn't allow for the same types of wines as the french.

And yeah, freshness means absolutely everything. If it wasn't that big of a deal, why don't wineries just buy their grapes instead of spending thousands of dollars to grow their grapes on site?

I suppose that you'd be right if there was a place with the exact same traditions, climate, elevation, amount of sun, equipment, and water as the places I listed, but I don't think there's anything like that.

The American beer scene didn't start from scratch when they started brewing - they took a lot of the knowledge that your revered German brewers had, and in some cases the actual brewers. Other European countries have been brewing beer and making wine as long as Germany and France. Breweries in North America may not be legally regulated by the same purity laws, but they often follow the same standards, so the existence of the laws is irrelevant.

Freshness is relevant for some products. Several of the things you listed rely on dried ingredients, though, where freshness isn't a significant concern with modern shipping techniques.

Having "the exact same traditions, climate, elevation, amount of sun, equipment, and water" suggests that the places you listed represent the global optima of those values for producing the highest qualities of the products. That's a pretty strong claim to make, and would require some form of evidence to be convincing.


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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:40 pm  
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Mns wrote:
Its a blend of everything. For example, the American beer scene has a lot of great lagers out there, but they haven't benefited from the hundreds of years of trial and error with the Germans.


Yeah, because God knows there weren't any Germans that came to America and brought that knowledge with them. Great argument, except for, you know, thinking about it for a second.

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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:46 pm  
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an In N' Out burger sounds really good right now but the nearest one to me is like a 30 min drive away :cry:
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 Post subject: Re: Wow France....Just Stop It
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:58 pm  
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Sipping wine doesn't suffuse the drinker with an understanding of the underlying science. Nor does not drinking wine mean that I don't understand the science behind it any more than my vegetarianism means I don't understand husbandry.

I'll answer your questions straight up, though:

First, supreme "freshness", in the the context of cheese and wine, isn't relevant because France has no comparative advantage when it comes to freshness versus California because CA has its own vineyards and free-range cattle.

Insofar as freshness is relevant in products that are both the product of fermentation, that is something the markets can decide - whether it's winos or connoisseurs. If freshness really makes a difference, and the end product of non-certified farms is deficient in that regards, then the connoisseurs will follow the quality. The best wineries will have the best reputation and and the worst firms will have the worst. Why is more regulation necessary?

Second, your view that "freshness" is the foremost consideration in wineries planting their own vineyards disregards the fact that really it isn't. The point of wineries planting their own vineyards is that they can control every aspect of the wine production process. Temperature, water, breed, vine age - all those interact with the post-harvest choices of zymurgy in subtle ways. And the very point of independent wineries is that they should be free to decide exactly what their label stands for.

This is a field in which CA has a major advantage over France. CA's willingness to experiment and deregulate means that any given winery has a much wider gradient of options available to them. In France, the "authorities" can mandate only a certain vine is permitted in a certain region.

All this would be obvious to you if you had spent any time studying agriculture, visiting wineries and vineyards, or getting hands-on experience with any aspect of production.

Mns wrote:
I suppose that you'd be right if there was a place with the exact same traditions, climate, elevation, amount of sun, equipment, and water as the places I listed, but I don't think there's anything like that.


Now this is where you make the jump from being merely snobbish to 100% wrong.

If you knew anything about agriculture you would know that crops often perform best in regions to which they are not native. This is the principle behind invasive species, of course, and it's true in agriculture too. Irish potatoes. American cotton. Florida oranges. Washington apples. The list goes on. So your ignorant belief that all species, domesticated or otherwise, are optimally adapted to their native environment is just that - ignorant.

Furthermore, one of the great advantages the US as a whole and CA in particular has is tremendous diversity of climate. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that many of the most successful agricultural regions in CA are actually not naturally fertile. Many of these regions have no native water supplies and are wholly reliant on aqueducts to bring water hundreds of miles down from the Sierra Nevadas. Now what this means, and the huge advantage it confers, is that producers can actually create optimal environments on what is in essence a blank slate.

Again, the US is big and diverse. You can go look at a map, or travel (a little or a lot) and see the tremendous diversity and gradual contours of the American environment. In CA alone, the terrain goes from below sea level in the basin of the Central Valley to two miles above it barely two hours' drive away. Temperatures at any given time of year vary from below freezing at the peaks of the Sierras to never dipping below 50 degrees in Death Valley. Between those extremes there is every permutation you can imagine.

This is all the more true because France is a temperate region and all plants grown there are suited for the happy mediums that every permutation of exists here in the US.

If you want objective proof, look at Hollywood. One of Hollywood's enduring strengths as a movie maker is not its community, but the simple fact that within a 500 mile radius of the city is every type of terrain and climate known to man. Films appear shot on site when in reality they merely exploited the contours of the terrain.

As for "traditions", you're using the word as a sort of voodoo.

The thing about "tradition" is that it is a living and evolving thing. As I pointed out, many of these "traditions" are themselves alien innovations made possible by outside influence and change. As I pointed out with hamburgers, many cultural innovations reach their zenith in the hands of some other culture. No one would seriously argue that people from Hamburg make a better hamburger than In-n-Out any more than anyone would seriously argue people from Italy make a better pair of jeans than Levi Strauss.

Honoring a tradition is all well and good. But there is a difference between honoring a tradition and treating it like a "living extinct" species that can't continue to get by in the wild because it's no longer viable, so it has to be hobbled along with artificial insemination and antibiotic regimens. Traditions evolve and many traditions only fully realize their potential after they've left home.


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