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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:01 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Laelia wrote:
What issue? This whole conversation stems from Usd suggesting that universities weren't part of the real world. I've spent longer in university than anyone else here, I think I'm reasonably qualified to discuss the subject.


We don't have "liberal arts colleges" versus "science colleges" in the US. That's not how our system is organized.

The reasons why this is so are uniquely American, and the fact that the system is set up this way is a major driving force in the pervasive defects of the system.

Laelia wrote:
What is intrinsically valuable about what anyone does? People only need food and shelter to survive. Are farming and construction the entirety of the "real world"?


You might have a point if living in caves and eating berries was still a viable option. As it happens, it is not. There are many advanced skills not specifically related to base human needs that are intrinsically valuable. As the saying goes, man does not live by bread alone.

Intrinsic value is value independent of the social favor of any particular system.
That which is more than a status symbol particular to one system but is universally recognized as having utility.

If you have a degree in Marxism from a Soviet university, when you come to America it might as well be toilet paper. A real-world example was this lieutenant in the Haitian army I knew who came to America and served in the US army as an enlisted man but was drummed out when he was told that no one gave a shit he was an officer in the Haitian army, he wasn't going to become an officer in the American army.

But maybe you're a tailor. And your business is making three-piece suits. So then you go to Saudi Arabia and try to hawk your skills. No one cares that you're good at making three-piece suits - but you can definitely leverage your skills to make something else, and the raw materials you have are still valuable.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:02 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Usdk wrote:
I rephrased to mean liberal arts in particular. I've never shit talked the pursuit of knowledge in science, mathematics, and other "brain" subjects.

liberal arts is mostly "heart" shit that really doesn't contribute to anything beyond entertainment in the real world. (by entertainment i mean literature, film, music, dance, etc.)


You still haven't defined what you mean by "real world".


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:09 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Mns wrote:
Not like education is swimming in money anyways, considering tax cuts are more important than the education system to a lot of people.


Yeah, actually it is.

Kids in China and India learn skills both elementary and advanced far more effectively than American students with less money and equipment. American schools decades ago had a fraction the material assets they do now but taught skills both elementary and advanced far more efficiently.

You can teach a kid or young man almost any skill from reading and arithmetic up to electrical engineering and biology in an unheated room with no computers or internet access. Adding those things won't improve the chances of succeeding in doing so if the system is fail.

The problem with education and dollars is not one of supply but of distribution. More pressing than either are the social attitudes that undermine the system's effectiveness.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:18 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
We don't have "liberal arts colleges" versus "science colleges" in the US. That's not how our system is organized.

The reasons why this is so are uniquely American, and the fact that the system is set up this way is a major driving force in the pervasive defects of the system.

Fine, substitute the word "program" for the word "college" (although both of my parents attended a liberal arts college in the US, so I know there are some there). What's the relevance of this to any of the arguments I've made?

Quote:
You might have a point if living in caves and eating berries was still a viable option. As it happens, it is not. There are many advanced skills not specifically related to base human needs that are intrinsically valuable. As the saying goes, man does not live by bread alone.

Intrinsic value is independent of the attitudes and biases of any particular system.

If you have a degree in Marxism from a Soviet university, when you come to America it might as well be toilet paper. A real-world example was this lieutenant in the Haitian army I knew who came to America and served in the US army as an enlisted man but was drummed out when he was told that no one gave a shit he was an officer in the Haitian army, he wasn't going to become an officer in the American army.

But maybe you're a tailor. And your business is making three-piece suits. So then you go to Saudi Arabia and try to hawk your skills. No one cares that you're good at making three-piece suits - but you can definitely leverage your skills to make something else, and the raw materials you have are still valuable.

Tailored clothes by themselves have no intrinsic worth - we could get by nude for much of the year even here in Canada, and wrap ourselves in animal furs when it's cold. The only intrinsic value of tailoring I can see in your example is employability. Guess what else makes someone more employable - a college degree. College graduates in the US have always had lower unemployment rates and higher wages than those without a degree, and that doesn't seem likely to change in the near future.


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:23 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
Fine, substitute the word "program" for the word "college" (although both of my parents attended a liberal arts college in the US, so I know there are some there). What's the relevance of this to any of the arguments I've made?


Because it highlights a central flaw in the American system: that the "one-track" general education system is a recipe for institutionalized mediocrity.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:36 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Because it highlights a central flaw in the American system: that the "one-track" general education system is a recipe for institutionalized mediocrity.


OK, but none of the arguments I made were about the quality of the US educational system.


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:44 pm  
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Laelia wrote:
OK, but none of the arguments I made were about the quality of the US educational system.


Then you're arguing about something that isn't the topic.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:46 pm  
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French Faggot
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The topic was tenure.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:48 pm  
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Euphonic wrote:
Good luck getting a professional job anywhere with tattoos.

In before,

LOL U CAN COVER THEM UP!


LOL MINE'S ON MY LEG AND IN THE PROFESSIONAL WORLD WE WEAR PANTS.


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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:48 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
The topic was tenure.


usdk wrote:
No. UNCG. maybe its different in canada, but america college is a big business, I posted a link to a report on how college loans are a bubble not unlike the housing market in a nother thread, too lazy to find it. Literally anyone can get into college, and 90% of the people i went with were either druggies, idiots, or those fucking fresh out of high school kids who already knew everything.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:49 pm  
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The topic rapidly became tenure.

I'll understand if you scrolled over Jubber's posts without reading them, though.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:52 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
The topic rapidly became tenure.

I'll understand if you scrolled over Jubber's posts without reading them, though.


Jubbergun wrote:
This is in no way comprehensive


It seemed he was incidentally commenting on one aspect of the larger issue.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:18 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Laelia wrote:
OK, but none of the arguments I made were about the quality of the US educational system.


Then you're arguing about something that isn't the topic.


The topic was shoes, then tattoos, and then whether universities were part of the real world, and then the value of tenure. You brought up the quality of the US educational system and nobody else has been discussing it.


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:21 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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By real world i mean occupations that actually contribute to the betterment of the standard of living.

like say medicine, not bongo drums.


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 Post subject: Re: My new shoes.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:30 pm  
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FUCKING DOUBLE-POST, FUCK YOU COMPUTER, YOU'RE A DICK!!!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

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Last edited by Jubbergun on Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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