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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:54 pm  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
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The only reason anyone else suffers because of the weak is because of the American ideal that we have to push our beliefs on everyone else. WE have to stick our noses in every ones business. We cover this bullshit up by saying we are trying to 'help' them. Yeah right. Let these people die off. If their immediate family can't help them, too fucking bad. USA, trying to be the biggest CPT Save A Ho ever. Mainly because some where in there big business might stand to profit.


[13:56:01] [W From] [Slimecrack]: I just wanted to tell your brown that when I look into its one brown eye, I see joy and love, thank god for your ass, PRAISE JESUS!
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:06 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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That is a very facile argument from someone who is fortunate enough to have an inheritance to prop up their own habit. Perhaps your views would be different if you did not have an "immediate family" to meliorate your own condition.

The reality is, though, the only thing that is uniquely American in this discussion, the entire theater of debate about drugs, or any other social issue, is the uniquely American idea that life should be a big free-for-all and that society shouldn't have common institutions or universal standards of morality.

Other societies don't have these kinds of debates because other societies take it for granted that viable societies don't work the way you're describing. They don't have debates as such because they don't have to deal with the consequences and inevitable contradictions in trying to uphold a totally unrealistic and unworkable ideal.

There is no "let them die" society in the world and there will never be.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:10 pm  
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French Faggot
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reposting to save it from the bottom of the second page.

So let me get this straight: when the government forces the population to pay for a prerequisite (drug testing) to a service they probably need to survive (welfare), it's acceptable.

When the government forces the population to pay for a prerequisite (health insurance) to a service they probably need to survive (healthcare), it's a disaster.

Do you retards even hear yourselves?


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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:15 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Yuratuhl wrote:
reposting to save it from the bottom of the second page.

So let me get this straight: when the government forces the population to pay for a prerequisite (drug testing) to a service they probably need to survive (welfare), it's acceptable.

When the government forces the population to pay for a prerequisite (health insurance) to a service they probably need to survive (healthcare), it's a disaster.

Do you retards even hear yourselves?


They aren't forcing anyone to pay for anything. If you pass the drug test (and most people are very aware when they won't), the fee you paid is refunded. The only way you end up paying the fee is if you're stupid enough to take a drug test when you know you're going to pop positive.

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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:17 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
So let me get this straight: when the government forces the population to pay for a prerequisite (drug testing) to a service they probably need to survive (welfare), it's acceptable.

When the government forces the population to pay for


Your analogy is a false one because you are establishing the common element as being the payment when that is not the common issue at all.

Your analogy is doubly false because welfare and healthcare are not comparable as requisites for survival.

Finally, your analogy fails because engaging in acts resulting in failure of a drug test is a matter of personal choice, whereas having the means to pay for healthcare is not.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:22 pm  
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French Faggot
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm
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Aestu wrote:
Finally, your analogy fails because engaging in acts resulting in failure of a drug test is a matter of personal choice, whereas having the means to pay for healthcare is not.


I'd say "so you mean poverty isn't a choice?" but I know you're not on the side of the fence claiming that.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:18 pm
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health insurance and welfare are completely seperate issues.

If i have to take a drug test to get and keep a job, you should have to take a drug test to live off the government.


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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:21 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:46 pm
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Are there any numbers for a cost-benefit-analysis of doing this? Even if you think denying welfare benefits to drug users is a good idea, is it worth the expense of testing everyone for the small percentage of people this will remove from the welfare rolls? If someone who's addicted to drugs gets denied welfare, are they more likely to turn to crime to finance their habits or will they get jobs?


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:23 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 4:53 pm
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Usdk wrote:
If i have to take a drug test to get and keep a job


I don't think I'll ever understand that country.


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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:32 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Laelia wrote:
Are there any numbers for a cost-benefit-analysis of doing this? Even if you think denying welfare benefits to drug users is a good idea, is it worth the expense of testing everyone for the small percentage of people this will remove from the welfare rolls? If someone who's addicted to drugs gets denied welfare, are they more likely to turn to crime to finance their habits or will they get jobs?


well, how much does a single person make off of welfare? 5 grand a year? that's a lot of tests to be paid for by NOT paying that particular person welfare.

I agree that it leaves the addict in the lurch. If only there was some place they could go for rehab. perhaps some homeless shelter they could live in while they look for work?

I think that there needs to be more efficient ways to help people get on their feet, but I think a harsh answer to someone who fucked up is just fine by me.

Also, don't get into drugs.

Jushiro, I'd agree if the only drug they were worried about was pot, but coke heroin lsd ecstasy etc are all also big problems here. I don't want someone working in my office if they're a hard core druggie, but i could honestly give a fuck about a little pot here and there.


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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:35 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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Apathy + welfare = ???

Pot is uniquely problematic for good reason.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:39 pm  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 1:05 am
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Aestu wrote:
That is a very facile argument from someone who is fortunate enough to have an inheritance to prop up their own habit. Perhaps your views would be different if you did not have an "immediate family" to meliorate your own condition.

The reality is, though, the only thing that is uniquely American in this discussion, the entire theater of debate about drugs, or any other social issue, is the uniquely American idea that life should be a big free-for-all and that society shouldn't have common institutions or universal standards of morality.

Other societies don't have these kinds of debates because other societies take it for granted that viable societies don't work the way you're describing. They don't have debates as such because they don't have to deal with the consequences and inevitable contradictions in trying to uphold a totally unrealistic and unworkable ideal.

There is no "let them die" society in the world and there will never be.


Way to leave out 50% of facts about my financial situation. Grats on missing the point of my post completely. Even more grats on finding a way to type a response that is twice as long as needed.

Yes, I inherited money when my mom died of cancer. Now, I could have easily quit my job at the time, spent it all on drugs and then once it was gone resorted to stealing and whatever else i could do to get my next fix. This is the only scenario you will accept as ever happening because you were told weed is bad, weed is a gateway drug and weed raped your mom/sister/dog and ate your homework. But what really happened is, i kept working at my job which still payed me a decent salary. I used the money inherited to acquire a nice house(which I still live in) with a decent interest rate on the mortgage. While still working I helped my dad start a concrete construction company in our area. It was relatively small but we got a good amount of work since our quality was way above average for our area and we still held competitive prices. Eventually we sold out to a bigger outfit in the area and we both made a decent amount of cash. I used the money from that sale to pay my house off plus my car. I saved the rest and continued working for salary until my kid was born. Heck, I still do work on the side for cash and make 500-600 dollars a week for maybe 15 hours of my time.

About the let a few go attitude I have. It might seem wrong to others but I have seen what happens when people desperately hold on to saving someone who has given up on every thing, including themselves. Some times when people don't want your help, it's best to leave well enough alone.


[13:56:01] [W From] [Slimecrack]: I just wanted to tell your brown that when I look into its one brown eye, I see joy and love, thank god for your ass, PRAISE JESUS!
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:44 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:46 pm
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Location: Ontario
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Usdk wrote:
well, how much does a single person make off of welfare? 5 grand a year? that's a lot of tests to be paid for by NOT paying that particular person welfare.

But does it pay for enough tests to make the expense worthwhile? That's why I asked - I couldn't find anything written about the expected costs or savings from this type of program.

Quote:
I agree that it leaves the addict in the lurch. If only there was some place they could go for rehab. perhaps some homeless shelter they could live in while they look for work?

I think that there needs to be more efficient ways to help people get on their feet, but I think a harsh answer to someone who fucked up is just fine by me.

Turning people out on the street has a social and financial cost. Even if you are willing to accept it on moral grounds, is it worth the savings of keeping some people off welfare?


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:46 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Our government hasn't put out projected spending costs in years, wink.

I dont know, honestly. I still think it's better to keep bad people off welfare because I dont like the government enabling bad habits. whether or not it IS better will be one very interesting social experiment though.


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 Post subject: Re: So Florida...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:47 pm  
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Kunckleheaded Knob
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 1:05 am
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Usdk wrote:
I don't want someone working in my office if they're a hard core druggie


This kind of person would stick out like a sore thumb. That's if they were even able to show up and perform any kind of duty. A hard core druggie is the guy waiting to rob and stab you outside the office late at night. :twisted:


[13:56:01] [W From] [Slimecrack]: I just wanted to tell your brown that when I look into its one brown eye, I see joy and love, thank god for your ass, PRAISE JESUS!
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