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so why not regulate the insurance companies?

While universal coverage is necessary the issue is not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be.

Human wants are unlimited but material wants are limited. If universal coverage meant you could just bill any procedure, totally at discretion, the real winners wouldn't be the sick, but medical super-specialists and drug firms that would do in the field of medicine what they currently do in the field of military hardware.

It's not quite as simple as "how much money you throw at insurance companies". The driving force in ballooning medical costs is not insurance companies but service providers and pharmaceutical firms. Insurance companies aren't guilty of driving prices up, they're guilty of treading on patients and not specialist physicians and pharmaceutical firms - denying care rather than challenging the powerful interests that drive costs up.



When you say stuff like this you go from making a legitimate argument for universal care to spouting socialist propaganda. Paying money for things is a less-than-level playing field? Paying for things is "rationing"?

Currency is a means of rationing? Wut?
FLASH OF THE BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS

My point is, rather than saying "everything should be free" and calling it a day, you really need to examine the much more difficult question as to how laws ought to work such that everyone gets a fair shake. For one thing, "kicking people off the plan as soon as they get sick" has been illegal for quite a while. Still happens, of course. But then if we go to a public system, how do you incentivize physicians to treat people they don't want to treat - black people, at-risk people, people with AIDS, etc?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

pretty sure its illegal to refuse treatment to someone based on skin, though i'm sure it happens.

"What are you going to do about it?"

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Mayo likes drinking and he's not exactly in tip-top shape. Why should I (or anyone else) be forced to pay for his healthcare when his liver or heart start acting up due to his poor choices in taking care of his body...?

Edit: Left off 'shape'

This is where I fall off the "universal healthcare" bandwagon.

I think the move there is simply charge people for being fucktards.

If you are a fatty, you have to pay a portion of your coverage out of pocket. If you smoke, you have to pay. If you sling your dick around without a rubber and get nasty bumps all over it, you should have to pay.

The problem really comes to an issue with our citizen's and healthcare mentality. There is not nearly enough focus on "preventative care" Eating right, exercising, and generally trying to live healthy is not rewarded enough.

agreed 100% on preventative care. Also, I've lost almost 30 pounds in just over two months. Bam.

How and where do you draw the line versus the Florida debate?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Why should I pay for you if you wrap a car around a tree or one of your kids is born with a defect and you need constant care and physical therapy for the rest of his or her life?

We all pay for each other. That's how the system should be.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

You didn't address his point. Where do you draw the line between the diametrical extremes of life-saving versus frivolous and random occurrence versus chronically irresponsible lifestyle?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

How much did you pay last year in federal income tax?

The reason I ask is because the system wouldn't be everyone paying for everyone. It'd be disproportionately skewed to make the wealthy pay for everyone else, namely the poorer people. Poorer people aren't the ones who are going to be signing up for gyms and eating from whole foods, and I suspect (from what I've seen in my day) that poorer people still don't make the best decisions when it comes to their health (like buying beer and cigarettes all the time).

Now, with some regulation to the insurance companies and with the chance to buy varying levels of insurance (like Jubber has mentioned before) then we might be able to tackle the problem. Trying to get me to pay for you isn't the way it should work, tho.

Maybe they can't sign up for gyms because they're too busy working for peanuts at multiple jobs and I don't know about you, but shopping at whole foods costs a fortune. Fast Food is devastating the lower classes because its cheaper than healthy food and it works for people who don't have the time to sit down and prepare a meal.

Rich people smoke and drink too, you know.


If the insurance companies take a profit hit by not being able to exploit the poorer people anymore, where do you think they're gonna regain their profits from? They're going to up your coverage and you'll get more for less. Let's also not forget that everyone else pays for the emergency room visits by those who can't afford the services, mainly because they drive up hospital costs for everyone.

No matter what happens, the rich end up paying for the desperately poor.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

break the regional monopoly, make the insurance companies compete with each other.

figure a way to drive the cost of various drugs and things down.

tax breaks for people who can complete a physical fitness test yearly, with brackets based on performance.

you can't FORCE people to do the right thing, but you can reward them for it.

Which is my point. Poorer people (the ones who the rich would be paying for) are likely to have less healthy lifestyles, not pay the same amount in taxes, and siphon more from the rich.


Yes. Rich people can afford cigarettes and beer... and they can also afford their own health care. I've got no complaint if they pay for their own lifestyles.


If the rich are already covering the poor, then why all the cries for universal health care?

Also, since you neglected to answer my question about your federal taxes last year, I'm going to assume you didn't pay anything... and therefore, you're not going to be 'paying for each other' like you said; instead, you'll just be paid for. Am I wrong?

That's BS. Do you think that Chinese and Mexican immigrants who live in crawlspaces eat McDonalds three meals a day? You don't need a gym or leisure time to keep weight to a manageable level.



Actually, no, by and large they don't. Not at the level that causes chronic ailment.



You're ignoring what was said. The dramatic cost increases aren't from insurance companies, they're from care providers. The unfairness comes into the picture not through insurance companies charging extortionate rates but through denying care.

You say "the rich" will pay for everything. How far do we take that? Do we just rubber-stamp all discretionary medical expenses until 50% of our economy is radiology and homeopathy?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.