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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:38 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Regardless, most of the hubub about gay marriage is perpetuated by the extremely religious right motivated by fear that allowing gay people to marry will cause us to divulge into a sick society of heathens (as if we aren't already such a society)

I blame the gays (and their gay pride parades and their flamboyance) for turning this country into the shitfest its become. Thanks, fags.


I blame the republicans!


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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:55 am  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Fantastique wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Regardless, most of the hubub about gay marriage is perpetuated by the extremely religious right motivated by fear that allowing gay people to marry will cause us to divulge into a sick society of heathens (as if we aren't already such a society)

I blame the gays (and their gay pride parades and their flamboyance) for turning this country into the shitfest its become. Thanks, fags.


I blame the republicans!


I blame Canada.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:32 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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I'm obviously not the only right-leaning person who thinks this doesn't really matter because marriage is a joke:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rialPage_h

You won't find enthusiasm for same-sex marriage at NRO, but we found it at Facebook, where a friend wrote: "So, now every person in this state who wants to make a lifetime commitment to someone else, someone they love, with all the rights and benefits that accompany, [is] free to do so. Simple as that. Congratulations to anyone whose life is changed by this, and best wishes!"

It's a sweet and generous sentiment but a false premise. Last August, to far less public attention, lawmakers in Albany enacted legislation making New York the final state to institute no-fault divorce, thereby abolishing even the pretense that marriage is a lifetime commitment under the law. Under this regime, marriage is a lifetime commitment only until one spouse decides otherwise.

As a Bloomberg report noted at the time, the Legislature took this step for a good practical reason, "to reduce long, cutthroat court battles over who's to blame when marriages fail":

"There is a human cost and a financial cost" to a system demanding fault-finding, Robert Ross, supervising judge of the matrimonial division in Nassau County, New York, on Long Island, said before the bill became law. "It's hard to know what impact a new law will have, but we do know that a grounds trial, and the expense and delay associated with it, is not a good thing."

New York's previous fault-based divorce system was out of step not only with the laws of the other 49 states but also with a culture in which divorce is commonplace and marriage for life is no longer the norm. This state of affairs has multiple and mutually reinforcing causes: female careerism, which reduces the value of the traditional male provider; the social acceptability of nonmarital sex (still quaintly termed "premarital"), made possible by the easy availability of contraception and abortion; and welfare and child-support laws that create incentives for childbearing outside marriage.

None of these developments have anything to do with homosexuality. Deroy Murdock made a good point some years back when he observed, in a column posted at NRO, that "social conservatives who blow their stacks over homosexual matrimony's supposed threat to traditional marriage tomorrow should focus on the far greater damage that heterosexuals are wreaking on that venerable institution today."

Murdock should have written "have wreaked for decades," because the developments we note all long predate any serious consideration of the idea of same-sex marriage. And it must be said that some social conservatives--notably Maggie Gallagher, another frequent National Review contributor--do take a broader view of the subject. As a political matter, however, outside the area of abortion it is hard to find a constituency whose members are eager to subject themselves to greater obligations or constraints in the name of social stability or for the good of the next generation.

Thus for the foreseeable future, civil marriage is likely to retain its character as little more than a financial arrangement. To be sure, many individual marriages are deeply committed relationships. But under a regime that permits either spouse to opt out of the commitment at will, the legal recognition of marriage is mere symbolism.

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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:25 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Quote:
In the 2006 case of Hernandez v. Robles, the Court of Appeals, New York's highest tribunal, held "that the New York Constitution does not compel recognition of marriages between members of the same sex. Whether such marriages should be recognized is a question to be addressed by the Legislature." New York thus is the first state to establish same-sex marriage by legislation after its high court has expressly declined to mandate it.


Highfive to New York for doing it the right way.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:49 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:46 pm
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Aestu wrote:
"Facts" are often a matter of perception. I wanted to know how you perceived them to be so we could discuss the issue in common terms. I've said this numerous times.

If you want to second guess my reasons for asking then you aren't interested in discussing the issue in good faith. This is corroborated by the fact you've opened at least two lines of questioning, then questioned their relevance, suggesting you weren't actually interested in the answer.

I'm still not seeing the relevance of perception here. I was clearly referring to the the legal benefits of marriage, and those are defined by laws, not by perception. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here since there's no way to resolve this to our mutual satisfaction. I'm still waiting for your answers for those questions, if you care to give them.

Quote:
And that's fine.

There have been times when equality was a serious issue. Here it is not. The status quo is not so bad it demands changing irrespective of the risks and potentially very bad precedent it would set.

You cannot legislate the power to give without setting a precedent for legislating the power to take away.

What are the risks of legislating marriage equality? Governments already have the power to give or take away marriage rights, and many states and the US federal government have already exercised both of those rights.

Jubbergun wrote:
in the past few years I've started to feel like being accepted just isn't enough and now we're expected to pat people on the back, and I become more annoyed with the whole thing every time I have to fucking hear about it.

If you're uncomfortable with the topic, just ignore it and it will go away soon. Since same sex marriage was legalized here, I don't recall a single news story about it at all (other than the first same-sex divorce).


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:40 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Oh, good, so I only have...what 46 more states to go? I'm sure I'm not going to be even more weary of this silly bullshit by the time all that is said and done.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:50 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Jubbergun wrote:
Oh, good, so I only have...what 46 more states to go? I'm sure I'm not going to be even more weary of this silly bullshit by the time all that is said and done.

Maybe you should advocate for more states to pass it then, so it's all done sooner :D


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:10 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Laelia wrote:
legal benefits of marriage, and those are defined by laws, not by perception.


If what the law does was objective and absolute, nothing would ever go before the Supreme Court.

Laelia wrote:
I'm still waiting for your answers for those questions, if you care to give them.


I don't. I'm tired of playing rhetorical tennis. HF


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:41 am  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Aestu wrote:
If what the law does was objective and absolute, nothing would ever go before the Supreme Court.

The laws in question are taken advantage of by millions of heterosexual married couples every year. Their existence or meaning is hardly controversial.

Laelia wrote:
I don't. I'm tired of playing rhetorical tennis. HF

Answering questions instead of spinning off on another irrelevant tangent=rhetorical tennis. Got it.


Laelia Komi Anomalocaris
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:13 am  
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Obama Zombie
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm
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Aestu wrote:
If what the law does was objective and absolute, nothing would ever go before the Supreme Court.

Well, couldn't an objective and absolute law still be in violation of the US Constitution?
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:06 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Aestu wrote:
If what the law does was objective and absolute, nothing would ever go before the Supreme Court.

Well, couldn't an objective and absolute law still be in violation of the US Constitution?


This thread is now about gun laws.

Go.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:06 am  
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I know it's easier for you to never give a clear-cut answer without trying to throw the discussion down a different path, but could you answer the fucking question since you said no objective and absolute law would ever go to the supreme course? Couldn't an absolute and objective law still violate the constitution?
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:37 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
I know it's easier for you to never give a clear-cut answer without trying to throw the discussion down a different path, but could you answer the fucking question since you said no objective and absolute law would ever go to the supreme course? Couldn't an absolute and objective law still violate the constitution?


WOOOOOOOOOOOSHHHHHHH

Ok, spelling it out for you. I gave you an answer by way of example. The adjectives you are using are unreal in politics as we know it. Gun rights debates are testament to that. The Constitution is the law of the land and 200 years later we're still arguing the stipulations because almost nothing is so clear-cut.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:43 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
I know it's easier for you to never give a clear-cut answer without trying to throw the discussion down a different path, but could you answer the fucking question since you said no objective and absolute law would ever go to the supreme course? Couldn't an absolute and objective law still violate the constitution?


Nihilism is a copout.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: @New York
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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You'd have a point, Azelma, if the "truth" was the issue. It's not. The line of questioning beginning with "rights in question" was all about perception.

The obvious and TRUE answer to Eturnal's question is, of course, yes. But what does it matter? We have a ton of unconstitutional political realities, because everyone's got their own self-serving notions about what the rights are and are not.

Executive privilege? Gun control? Offensive expression? Asking, "What are the rights?" yields a ton of different answers and it's perfectly proper to ask such a question to frame the terms of the debate. What IS, by the letter of the law, a violation of rights is of little relevance when discussing real-world issues.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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