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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:55 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
Heroes don't die talking.


Moses
Cassandra
Socrates
Demosthenes
Cicero
Jesus
Seneca
Dante
Galileo
Luther
Paine
Trotsky
Gandhi
Malcolm X
Tank Man


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:59 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Good point, but you're going to have quite a few flights of stairs to climb before you're operating on that level.

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AKA "ROFeraL"

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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:04 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:55 am
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Rome during its rise to power = Fuck you I will do what I want you can eat shit
Rome when they decided to be nice = Lets talk things out for hours on end and get nothing done.
Rome after the fall of the empire = wtf happened

America during our rise to power = Fuck you I will do what I want and you can eat shit
America when we decided to be nice = Lets not piss anyone off and make laws so everyone is happy
America after someone stomps the shit ouf of us = wtf happened.


9 level 90s and 10 85s, Damn I need another hobby.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:25 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
Good point, but you're going to have quite a few flights of stairs to climb before you're operating on that level.

Could say the same about Usd and Rambo.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:26 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Baneleaf wrote:
America after China stomps the shit ouf of us = wtf happened.


Fix't.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:59 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:55 am
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Location: Fort Oglethorpe, Ga
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Azelma wrote:
Baneleaf wrote:
America after China stomps the shit ouf of us = wtf happened.


Fix't.


I was originally going to put China instead of someone, but I left room for the Russians or N Koreans to move in too.


9 level 90s and 10 85s, Damn I need another hobby.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:05 pm  
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Obama Zombie
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm
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Do we really think N. Korea is capable of launching an invasion against mainland USA? I bet they get taken out over the Pacific even if they tried to get close to Hawaii.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:42 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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It's interesting how the left sees decline in economic terms and the right sees decline in military terms.

Suffice to say, military dynamics are irrelevant.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:50 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:18 pm
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Calling that invasion of america thing a fantasy, when this entire thread is a fantasy, is laughable at best.

Personally, I think it'll bw zombies.


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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:10 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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It's not a fantasy that our country is in decline and that foreign influence will seriously undermine our way of life as we know it within our lifetimes; see sig.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:30 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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So instead of blaming the boat for sinking why not plug the hole? If you have all the answers why not bequeath them to us plebeians?


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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:31 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I've said what the problem is: the problem is fundamentally social, the way in which American values have proven their own undoing. There's no quick fix. In the short run, the budget should be balanced through a combination of cuts, tax increases, and changing the dynamics of some programs such as Social Security and the military.

In the longer term, the electoral system needs to be reformed and there needs to be more government action aimed at stabilizing society. I believe that is is perverted values and disinformation that rides on a polluted culture that undermines the debate and thought processes needed to sort out what is wrong with our country. Greece is a far more extreme example of this: why is corruption such a way of life there? Because of their values, their ways of life. We have the same problems but in different respects - a problem with values that prevents superficially economic or political problems from sorting themselves out. This is also why people vote against their own interests.

That is the failing of the libertarian viewpoint. The paradox that individual freedom to make one's own choices is a false one. No one can be free from the world that other people construct from their own freedom, and the world with the greatest individual freedom isn't necessarily the most individually free. The best example of this, is, of course, corporate America and things like Wal-Mart or Facebook or Microsoft or Moodys. Those things are the product of other people's freedom, and even without direct violence they undermine the freedom of a great many people.

The libertarian viewpoint is also faulty because people are the product of their environment - we live in a world of ideas, always have, and always will, whether we realize it or not - and individual freedom allows everyone to affect that environment, to the detriment of individual self-determination, which is also a form of freedom. Fox News is the most apt example. So is World of Warcraft - how it has changed since Vanilla in response to Blizzard's decisions, how people believe their own lies and shills for their petty behavior because they buy the "party line". There are innumerable more subtle examples - the connection between consumerism and cultural change over time. Or how "freedom" results in a national political dialogue that is neither free nor fair nor true nor relevant. That "freedom" limits the freedom of the world we as individuals live in. It negates our freedom to ascend.

I believe that the solution in the longer term is to promote freedom by promoting the essential prerequisites for freedom - responsibility and the means to power - which in practice often means making society less free. It is a paradox but an indisputably true one.

In sum, I challenge what I see as the folly of the uniquely modern American brand of anything-goes libertarianism. I believe that a society that is to be viable in the long run and offer a good and free life for its citizens must also have laws and regulations to keep things on track. To keep what is good and to cast out what is bad.

Banning the tabulation of information about private individuals by NGOs is a limit on freedom that makes people more free.

Taxing the wealthy and shackling the powers of banks so as to fund universal healthcare and daycare and education and interest-free loans is a limit on freedom that makes people more free.

Banning insurance and mandating that licensed doctors must accept patients on a double-blind basis (forcing them to accept people with state healthcare by ensuring they don't know their patients before they meet them) is a limit on freedom that makes people more free.

Banning campaign donations is a limit on freedom that makes people more free.

Banning cars and individual housing that waste urban space, creates noise and pollution, beholdens us to foreigners and makes housing a massive drain on national resources, is a limit on freedom that makes people more free.

Banning crass, tasteless or violent TV programs is a limit on freedom that makes people more free.

I strongly feel a number of new legal devices need to be introduced, amongst them a writ of nil obstat - with this device, signed by a new class of magistrates, all procedural obstacles preventing an action that is not inherently illegal are instantly negated and the action must go forward under threat of contempt of court. This would mostly be connected with things like licensing firms and creating infrastructure.

Another legal device I feel needs to be introduced is that any public statement or mass transmission must have a seal connecting ultimate responsibility for that statement or transmission to a licensed individual (and to be licensed requires a certain interest in the business; i.e., must be executive-level). This means, for example, if a petitioner is trying to get signatures, or you get junk mail, or a false bill, or an attempt at unlawful connection, a particular individual who signed for it can be indicted if it appears that the statement was in some respect unlawful, due to being false, in violation of business law, under false pretenses, or consisting of some form of racketeering. This would also apply to almost everything connected with banking.

My single most fundamental belief driving all this:

A free society is a society that allows people to grow to their potential and weigh values and arguments independently of the power or prestige of any faction. Sometimes this means undermining the cruelty of unlimited freedom. Those limits on freedom are a reality of any society whether we realize it or not. Of course this is an ideal that finds its extremes in Republic and Anthem.

I am not so naive as to believe that we can build a utopia within our lifetime if ever. However, I am wise enough to appreciate that the positive examples that have been laid out for us by those who dared to make history and those who dared to at least think the hard thoughts have utility and have the potential to continue to guide us to a better tomorrow.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:36 pm  
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French Faggot
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm
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Am I the only one who's not too macho to admit that I'd probably be a collaborator?

I like living.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:04 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Am I the only one who's not too macho to admit that I'd probably be a collaborator?

I like living.


You're French, so it's kind of expected, and we don't hold it against you. Personally, I'd prefer if you were singing "Viva la Resistance!" instead of joining the Vichy, but since I'll probably be some sort of amoral profiteer and all around bastard, I'm not really in any position to judge.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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 Post subject: Re: When Will America Fall?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:07 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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28th Amendment
I. All items sold over any impersonal medium or by any licensed business must have been produced in accordance with the laws of the United States, regardless of their country of origin.

II. Should it be established by a country, state or federal court that mechandise is being offered for sale or has been sold that is in violation of Article I, the merchandise is to be destroyed.

III. If the production of said goods involved acts contrary to the Constitution or social crime, the responsible individual is to be considered guilty of said acts.

29th Amendment

I. All state and federal judges and congressmen are forbidden from receiving any favors, implicit or explicit, from any individual or NGO, and while performing their duties must meet all costs of living out of pocket at fair market value.
II. All media organizations holding a transmission license are required to provide three hours per week of airtime to any winner of a primary country, state or federal election.
III. All state and federal judges and congressmen are required to consume at least a thousand meals each year at a cafeteria situated on the premises of an office of high government.

30th Amendment

I. The systematic tabulation of information for the purpose of influencing the reputation of private citizens or sovereign governments is hereby deemed a social crime.

II. Pollution of common resources, in either an administrative or operative capacity, is hereby deemed a social crime.

III. Mismanagement in bad faith due to pursuit of personal gain, of funds or enterprise resulting in grievous harm to the livelyhoods of stakeholders, is hereby deemed a social crime.

IV. Revocation or diminution of benefits to entitled individuals without malfeasance is hereby deemed a social crime.

V. The bearing of arms in the service of any faction other than personal or national defense is hereby deemed a social crime.

VI. The depiction without factual basis of corporeally grotesque or criminally violent acts is hereby deemed a social crime.

VII. Social crimes may be tried only by supreme county, state or federal courts, and carry an automatic penalty of death by hanging if found guilty.

31st Amendment

Financially binding documents associated with a business are legally binding only if sealed by an executive-level personnel. That personnel must appear within 30 days of communication to answer any summons or query. Failing to do so constitutes a social crime.

32nd Amendment

I. In times of peace, conspiracy to withhold information, financial details, or access to premises not specifically related to deployment or technical specification (as to be determined via full disclosure to the civil supreme court in the county in question, or that of the petitioner) is deemed a social crime. All federal legislators, governors and presidents are afforded unlimited access within their sphere of responsibility.

II. The wearing of military uniforms or their plausible likeness (of any nation) when not on duty is hereby deemed a social crime.

III. The display of an American flag, or other national symbol, or likeness thereof, on any person or private premises, is hereby deemed a social crime.


33rd Amendment

The subsidy of the distribution of products or services through compensation for advertising is hereby deemed a social crime.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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