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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:44 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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BOTH SIDES have made pretty impressive contributions to the debt. Now BOTH SIDES need to find an answer. The republicans already compromised by getting the majority of the 'tea party' freshmen to agree to raising the debt ceiling...if you recall, most of them were opposed to raising it at all...and passed a bill allowing for it. Now the democrats need to do some compromising of their own, and even if that means just combining the House Bill and Reid Plan, it has to be done in a very short period of time.

Be prepared, though. Even if congress can get its shit together, Obama may veto it...and attempt to put the blame elsewhere since he's not getting his tax hikes. Then we'll have to hope congress remembers how to override a veto in an even shorter period of time.

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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:05 pm  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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Last time I checked there were absolutely zero new taxes in the new plan.

Where's the compromise?


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:30 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Quote:
The Democrats aren't responsible for the debt, the GOP is - the Iraq War and cutting taxes to an unprecedented low level. Obama simply had the misfortune of being on watch when the chickens came home to roost. What, exactly, do you blame Obama for? "Spending like a mofo." On what? Be specific.

They are responsible for debt acquired the past 3 years. They've been in control of a large majority of the government. Bush made some dumbass moves, but Obama has metaphorically doubled down on dumbass moves. Obama can only ride the "this is what I was handed" train so long, and I don't think he has reasonable claim to ride it anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
As for what they spend it on:
2010
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... tegory.jpg

Of the 5 big ones, 4 of them are of entitlement nature.

Quote:
Last time I checked there were absolutely zero new taxes in the new plan.

Where's the compromise?

Compromise is letting the debt ceiling go up.

A better one would be a cut into military spending especially in lieu of a debt ceiling raise. Until that happens, Repubs won't ever look or be as serious about making cuts as they need to.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:36 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Ok. Dumbass moves. Specifics?


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:08 pm  
Blathering Buffoon
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:12 am
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Medicare and Social Security aren't entitlements, people paid for those all their lives so that they are there when they retire.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:16 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Dvergar wrote:
Medicare and Social Security aren't entitlements, people paid for those all their lives so that they are there when they retire.


and yet i'm paying for it all my life and it won't be there for me.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:24 pm  
Malodorous Moron
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:59 pm
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Taxpayer, a synonym of beneficiary.

Protest for representation, idiots.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:25 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Aestu wrote:
Ok. Dumbass moves. Specifics?


Libya.
Stimulus.
Increased unemployment benefit lengths.
Increasing spending at all, the magnitude for which he has can be counted as multiple dumbass moves.

Dvergar wrote:
Medicare and Social Security aren't entitlements, people paid for those all their lives so that they are there when they retire.


That's their intended purpose, yes.

But that's not how they work in their present state.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:25 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
and yet i'm paying for it all my life and it won't be there for me.


That's a function of the people you're voting for, not of the programs. Social Security isn't a problem in the slightest, aside from the irrational hate-boner conservatives have for it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/2 ... -on-C-SPAN

Quote:
Libya.

This one was his fault.
Quote:
Stimulus.

Despite the "if you say a lie enough it becomes true" strategy the conservatives are employing on this one, it was successful. It continues to be shown more successful everytime the numbers for the recession are adjusted to show how bad it really was.
Quote:
Increased unemployment benefit lengths.

Acts of congress are now Obama's dumbass moves? You know what's even stupider about this complaint? Every dollar of unemployment goes directly back into the economy. These are the people who can't afford to save. Cutting off all unemployment would have further devastated the economy.
Quote:
Increasing spending at all, the magnitude for which he has can be counted as multiple dumbass moves.

Again, there are very few things he can spend unallocated money on, as all spending comes from congress.

Frankly, complaining about spending during a recession just highlights a gross misunderstanding of what solves recessions.

Quote:
That's their intended purpose, yes.

But that's not how they work in their present state.


That is exactly how they work in their present state.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:40 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Social Security is a savings account through the government in it's ideal form, and income transfer in it's current form.

People keeping their own money to either save or invest is a better alternative to both.

In the ideal form, SS doesn't earn any interest and isn't accessible like different types of savings accounts. Granted some savings account types have fees if you pull out early, but you still have this option if you find yourself in a pinch.

In it's current form, it's a scam to anybody who decides to make the right decisions in life.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:17 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Quote:
...complaining about spending during a recession just highlights a gross misunderstanding of what solves recessions.

I would normally agree that spending is key to recovery during a recession, but how much more do we need to throw in the fire before we look for a different approach to create some real growth? Interest rates are at retardedly low levels and we've spent well over 1T in trying to save the economy (Bush's TARP, Obama stimulus, cash for clunkers, 99 month unemployment, various bailouts) and there hasn't been much recovery at all. I'd be interested in knowing how the stimulus package (which was supposed to create jobs, stall unemployment and boost the economy) was a success when all it could be credited for is creating a very, very, very slow growth. Truth be told, recessions don't last forever and there's always a bit of growth after one - this is evidences by the dozens of recessions we've had in the past... to attribute the stimulus to the success of the economy (if you can call its current state a success) is kinda like someone saying the sun is rising because they set their alarm clock.

Also, I read that bit (didn't watch the video) from that non-biased website Dailykos and, unless I misread something, how the fuck can anyone say there is a 110T reserve sitting somewhere for Social Security? Just glancing at this chart, it doesn't even look like we've collected near that much in revenue over the last 70 years. (Seriously, did I read that wrong!?) Also, the CBO is projecting that the cost of Social Security is going to be a greater percentage of GDP (climbing a few points) over the 75 year projection. That kinda means that Social Security is going to cost more, right?
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:31 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
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Libya...fair enough.

Stimulus...fair enough.

Unemployment benefits? There wasn't any alternative, there still isn't, and like Dvergar said it all goes right back into the economy.

All that, however, is marginal, and like Zaryi pointed out, government spending has remained constant when adjusted for inflation; what is sinking the boat is lower revenues and the Bush policies.

Idk, does anyone have figures on how much those three Obama policies cost?

Weena wrote:
Social Security is a savings account through the government in it's ideal form, and income transfer in it's current form.

People keeping their own money to either save or invest is a better alternative to both.

In the ideal form, SS doesn't earn any interest and isn't accessible like different types of savings accounts. Granted some savings account types have fees if you pull out early, but you still have this option if you find yourself in a pinch.


Sounds good, doesn't work.

Unfortunately, the reality is people by and large can't be trusted to make all the right decisions through life.

It is easy to say, "people should live with the consequences of their actions". But that's not how it works, and that's not how it will ever work. The school of hard knocks is an unforgiving one, and being a healthy adult it is hard to visualize a day when one's vitality is gone. That is common to the human experience and very few people see past the illusion of eternal youth.

Draconian policies won't change human nature.

And what would happen when, inevitably, at least some people reach their old age with insufficient means? Do we chuck them out on the street? I won't argue for or against the merits of doing so, rather, I'm just going to point out - that is totally unrealistic. It's not a question of moral or political will, it's simply that a civilized people won't stand for it. Those reprobates WILL become a social liability. They WILL have to be cared for one way or another. They WILL become everyone's problem.

There's also the reality that sometimes the right decisions are the wrong ones.

Social Security was founded as part of the New Deal, because during the Depression a lot of people who did in fact have savings in banks lost them to bank rushes and bank failures. Some of us remember grandparents or great-grandparents who died trusting no bank more than their mattress.

More recently, back in the 70s, a lot of middle-class families saw their savings totally wiped out by double-digit stagflation. Socking away $10,000 in a savings account earning a generous 3% annually doesn't mean jack when you're watching the currency lose 10% of its value yearly.

For all the flaws of American government, there is no institution in this country - and only two others in the rest of the world combined - more stable and enduring. There is a reason that T-bills are still considered the second safest, surest investment (after gold). And, in the final analysis, if one has to bank their future on something, the stability of the American government the least of all evils. After all, if the government falls, all bets are off - and your savings, held in US dollars backed by the faith of that government, won't do you any good however you invest them.

Social Security provides a meager, but sufficient, livelyhood. You say it's a scam to anyone making the right choices in life, but the reality is, anyone who relies solely on it is already making the wrong choices. Someone who wants a comfortable retirement is going to be socking away anyway.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:47 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Weena wrote:
Compromise is letting the debt ceiling go up.


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL good one, bro!


























...Wait, you were serious?

There is NO other choice. Compromise is tax hikes on the rich + spending cuts on everything including entitlements. PERIOD. Taking a bite out of the things that the parties don't want to do is compromise, NOT doing what is universally accepted as being in the nation's interest. Think otherwise and find yourself among the foolish.

Letting the gov't default is not good, it makes us look bad in the world's eye and damages the economy further. Why would you want that? If you have no national pride and think it's okay to go through an embarrassing default, gtfo - don't worry, you won't be missed. It's not like we need more dumbasses in this country anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:48 pm  
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Stupid Schlemiel
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 4:53 pm
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move to Canada


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:53 pm  
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Deliciously Trashy
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Jushiro wrote:
move to Canada


us getting married so i can immigrate is still on, yes?


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