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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:27 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
I'm beginning to see how you view moderates so negatively, Aestu. You feel the only way for true progress is to work in extremes where someone always loses. I think progress can happen through compromise and is impeded by wildly swinging extremes.


You're seeing only the reflection of your own pusillanimity.

I didn't say anything about winning or losing or that someone losing was necessary. I said that the procedure and policy needs to be internally consistent.

To make an analogy in terms you might understand, you might enjoy boxing, and you might enjoy MMA, but trying to make a "compromise" between the rules and style of boxing and MMA isn't going to work very well. The game is one or the other.

Or WoW. You might enjoy Halo/CoD, or you might enjoy EQ/UO, or you might enjoy Super Mario Bros, but trying to make a game which will compare favorably against all genres, all contenders, by "compromising", will lose to all.

So far as American politics goes, Lincoln said it best:

Quote:
I believe this government cannot endure, permanently, half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South.


Whether the topic is slavery or taxation or the social system or lasseiz-faire vs mixed economy is arbitrary.

The constant is: any viable system must have unity of purpose and vision. We don't all have to have the same opinions, but what all those opinions create must be cohesive.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:32 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
multiple parties would be exceptional. fuck the one party system.


Sounds good, doesn't work, more often than not it leads to gridlock and patronage.

I think the best system is the republic - blanket ban on political parties, state-funded campaigning, political life dominated by individual personalities, strong civil service.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:32 pm  
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French Faggot
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Look at how we felt about idiots like us in the 30s.

http://i.imgur.com/N2IIq.jpg

Changed to URL format due to page breaking hugeness.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:45 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
That's unconstitutional.

Article One, Section Eight of the Constitution explicitly states it is Congress' authority to borrow money and craft fiscal policy. Article Four, Section Three explicitly states that Congress' authority supercedes that of the states.

Congress would still be the body responsible for the budget proposal (which the President would sign or veto) and there was no talk (ever) of giving the states power to make the federal budget. The talk is to simply limit the budget (although I thought I read at one point the debt could grow by a small percentage of GDP) to make sure we're not over-spending as we've been doing. That means the President and Congress would have to raise revenues or cut spending to balance future budgets. The agreement will hold congress to work on passing the amendment (to at least get something out to the states for ratification), before they'll consider another increase. It's common sense in stone and I don't see how that violates the constitution.

Aestu wrote:
The constitutional authority of Congress can't be altered or subverted without a constitutional amendment.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK EVERYONE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE SAY 'BALANCED BUDGET AMENDMENT'!?
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:48 pm  
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Quote:
To make an analogy in terms you might understand, you might enjoy boxing, and you might enjoy MMA, but trying to make a "compromise" between the rules and style of boxing and MMA isn't going to work very well. The game is one or the other.


When making a point about purity you may not want one of your pure examples to be, by it's very name, a mutt of styles and rules.

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Look at how we felt about idiots like us in the 30s.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:01 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
You're seeing only the reflection of your own pusillanimity.


You keep calling me a coward for having various viewpoints on various subjects that have the end result of me being regarded as politically moderate. This doesn't mean I don't have strong viewpoints on specific subjects. You claim I have no backbone or that I somehow have no principals because I seek compromise or am willing to entertain opposing viewpoints. It really makes no sense.

Aestu wrote:
To make an analogy in terms you might understand, you might enjoy boxing, and you might enjoy MMA, but trying to make a "compromise" between the rules and style of boxing and MMA isn't going to work very well. The game is one or the other.

Or WoW. You might enjoy Halo/CoD, or you might enjoy EQ/UO, or you might enjoy Super Mario Bros, but trying to make a game which will compare favorably against all genres, all contenders, by "compromising", will lose to all.


I always feel like you're being condescending. But yes, explained like that I can see where you're coming from. That being said, I fail to see how compromise should be dismissed in all current political situations.

Aestu wrote:
The constant is: any viable system must have unity of purpose and vision. We don't all have to have the same opinions, but what all those opinions create must be cohesive.


Don't both sides of the debt debate have the same end purpose? "Reduce the federal deficit and avoid defaulting"? The vision is where they differ...that is the path for how to get there. That is where the compromise must occur.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:25 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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If we are cutting things and getting more revenue, I don't understand why we have to raise the debt ceiling at all, for the long term at least.

If it never went above X, and we never moved X, we'd be better off.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:57 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
You keep calling me a coward for having various viewpoints on various subjects that have the end result of me being regarded as politically moderate. This doesn't mean I don't have strong viewpoints on specific subjects. You claim I have no backbone or that I somehow have no principals because I seek compromise or am willing to entertain opposing viewpoints. It really makes no sense.


"Moderate" meaning "splitting the difference" is neither morally good nor factually correct. If your viewpoint is dead center then by definition your viewpoint is not strong.

What makes a viewpoint strong is that it is self-defined, rather than being defined purely in relative terms. If the best that can be said of your views is that they are moderate then your views are not strong but weak because they are defined only by other views.

After all, "moderate" by your definition is merely in the middle of what the general population believes - which is arbitrary. If the general population happened to be ideologically different and you again sat in the middle you wouldn't be any more likely to be correct.

...

"Pusillanimous" isn't merely a synonym for "coward". There is the kind of cowardice that comes from self-interest, or an inability to control one's urges or instincts - people who flee necessary challenge, or who have difficulty living with the consequences of telling the truth, or whatnot.

Pusillanimity is a particular form of cowardice. It literally means "small-spirited". It's the kind of cowardice that leads people to fixate on small and petty goals because they don't have the strength of character to see the big picture. People who look for an easy way out of life's difficult questions
and moral or intellectual challenges because of what amounts to hedonism.

There's that scene in the Red Badge of Courage where the kid runs from battle then tells himself he did the right thing and invents this dumb rationalization why. What makes the thought process pusillanimous and not merely cowardly is that he tries to take the easy way out: what satisfies his urges, he feels, must also be the correct and proper thing. He doesn't see the big picture - that being courageous means having to accept the negative consequences of that course of action.

There is no "win-win" when it comes to a question of courage. To insist there is, is the very essence of pusillanimity - intellectual hedonism.

Azelma wrote:
Don't both sides of the debt debate have the same end purpose? "Reduce the federal deficit and avoid defaulting"? The vision is where they differ...that is the path for how to get there. That is where the compromise must occur.


No...because the budget itself is the means to an end: putting into practice a political vision.

How strong do we want our military to be? What are the goals for our military? Do we want to be able to intervene in other countries' affairs? Do we want to maintain permanent presences in other countries? If so, for what reasons - political, economic, humanitarian? Do we want to have a fleet capable of taking out pirates? Of challenging other fleets on the open waters? Of supporting invasions? Bombarding loser countries with cruise missiles? Or do we believe that MAD makes all fleets obsolete?

Do we want Social Security to be a safety net? Or do we see it as mere bread-and-circuses so those who aren't at-risk can get on with their lives in gated communities? Or do we want the SSA to be a way back into mainstream society?

Do we want Medicare and Medicaid to be the insurers of last resort? Or do we want them as a sort of price ceiling for insurance by way of competition? Do we see them as instruments of social change (i.e., affirmative action) or should they benefit everyone equally? Should they benefit only the desperate and destitute or also the working poor? How about the middle class?

What's our long-term vision for the economy? Do we want a free-market utopia? Or do we want a more pragmatic vision of a mixed economy? How important, in relative terms, are the environment, social justice, equality of opportunity, equality of results, and the net economic product of our economy? Are we going to be "high-rollers" (the EU) or "low-ballers" (China) in the global economy? Or something in between (India)? Do we want to improve our economic situation by aiming low, cutting social services to the bone and running the currency so corporations will be able to exploit our citizens, guaranteeing a low per capita GDP, but relative stability? Or do we want to invest in social services and heavily regulate our economy to ensure a more stable and enriched society, guaranteeing a higher per capita GDP, but at the cost of a bloated state?

All those questions come down to two very simple value judgements embodied in the budget: How much we want to spend, and what we want our spending to buy.

The budget really doesn't address those questions. It has a lot of spending on various things, but that spending is largely by consensus and long-term status quo - and how much money we have in our wallets - and doesn't reflect any clearly defined goal.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:59 pm  
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I'd actually like to see some President actually make a payment to bring down our debt. We all know making interest-only payments on a credit card only means you're going to forever pay interest.
Vote for me...

* Increase EVERYONES (all socio-economic classes) federal taxes.
* Extend payroll taxes to investments so returns will help cover social security and medicare, rather than a flat Cap. Gains tax.
* Start hacking away at government expenses; Dept. of Labor, Education, Agriculture could use some cuts. Cut defense, Medicare/Medicaid and Soc. Security, while working on completely phasing out Soc. Security (by establishing a cut-off so beneficiaries get their care, those who paid into it get a small cut, and those who had no role in the system get nothing; L2Save, nubs.)
* Take a large majority of a surplus (assuming we ever have one of those) and use it to pay down the debt.
* ???
* USA USA USA

Quote:
If we are cutting things and getting more revenue, I don't understand why we have to raise the debt ceiling at all, for the long term at least.

Washington is talking about 1T in cuts... over the next decade, where many cuts don't even take place until years from now. When you're currently spending 1.3T over budget (each year), trying to cut 8% of that later down the road will be pointless, especially when we'll just pay that savings in interest. We need more cuts. Hell, I'd be all for raising revenue (loltaxthemrichpplz) IF that money was used to get us out of that mess instead passing out more entitlements.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:16 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
* Increase EVERYONES (all socio-economic classes) federal taxes.


The middle class is squeezed enough.

Those who enjoy the most under our system should foot the lion's share of the cost of its upkeep. Those same people are also the ones least affected by our current downturn.

This would also make the economic downturn much much worse because the less well-off have much higher spending to income ratio. You would have more money being taken out of the average citizens' wallets, while those who are sitting on their gains would have much more.

Eturnalshift wrote:
* Extend payroll taxes to investments so returns will help cover social security and medicare, rather than a flat Cap. Gains tax.


This would destroy any incentive to save and ensure only the very rich are able to maintain long-term investments. It would also be stupidly biased in favor of those who currently have high capital gains taxes (wealthy investors and CEOs).

Eturnalshift wrote:
* Start hacking away at government expenses; Dept. of Labor, Education, Agriculture could use some cuts. Cut defense, Medicare/Medicaid and Soc. Security, while working on completely phasing out Soc. Security (by establishing a cut-off so beneficiaries get their care, those who paid into it get a small cut, and those who had no role in the system get nothing; L2Save, nubs.)


We don't want to live the way the Chinese do. We have those systems because the alternative is worse.

The belief that life is fundamentally fair and anyone, anywhere, at any time, has the means to make it isn't even idealistic...it's childish.

I say it is childish, because part of maturity - what changes between childhood and adulthood - is striking a balance between understanding both life's inherent unfairness, and one's moral obligation to be fair in an unfair world.

Eturnalshift wrote:
* Take a large majority of a surplus (assuming we ever have one of those) and use it to pay down the debt.


Sup Clinton

Eturnalshift wrote:
Hell, I'd be all for raising revenue (loltaxthemrichpplz) IF that money was used to get us out of that mess instead passing out more entitlements.


You say you don't like entitlements but accepting the status quo because it happens to be good for you is itself clinging to an entitlement.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:21 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
That is where the compromise must occur.


SHHHHH bro! There are republicans here! What, you want to get your ass kicked for using such a dirty word or something?!

Eturnalshift wrote:
* Start hacking away at government expenses; Dept. of Labor, Education, Agriculture could use some cuts.


Oh god, whyyyyyy! I'm sick to death of people who don't have a decent education, and somehow it makes sense to cut education and make MORE dumb people?! And then we wonder why kids in India are smarter than their American counterparts by leaps and bounds.... In fact, I remember from that "Did you know?" video that India has more honors students than the United States HAS students.

With what face do we dare call ourselves the greatest country in the world?


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:25 pm  
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Labor, education, etc, all those departments combined are something like 5% of the federal budget. You slash them by 90% and it won't even make a dent in the budget, but the economic costs of doing so would be enormous. In terms of investment, those departments pay for themselves many times over.

That said, I believe that the educational system doesn't need more funding, it needs a conceptual overhaul. Kids are dumb and uneducated for complex social reasons that have very little to do with federal spending.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:28 pm  
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The destruction of the education system is the reason the US is on the decline.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason to screw kids out of an education, and screw the country out of a future.


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:36 pm  
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I thought the whole reason for getting rid of the national debt is so that "our children and grandchildren won't inherit our mistakes". So the alternative is make our country (including our kids and grandkids) a bunch of dumb fucks?

Gotta love republican logic sometimes...


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 Post subject: Re: this debt shit is embarassing.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:39 pm  
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Quote:
The middle class is squeezed enough.

Those who enjoy the most under our system should foot the lion's share of the cost of its upkeep. Those same people are also the ones least affected by our current downturn.

How don't the rich (who benefited most) not pay their share?

Quote:
This would also make the economic downturn much much worse because the less well-off have much higher spending to income ratio. You would have more money being taken out of the average citizens' wallets, while those who are sitting on their gains would have much more.
I'm not saying we raise the taxes on everyone at the same rate nor am I advocating a Fair Tax system. I'm simply saying that (as you point out) everyone in this country has benefited in some way; everyone should contribute a small portion to help get it out of debt. I'm willing to make that concession since this is a dire circumstance we've found ourselves in. We all got ourselves in this mess and we all need to get ourselves out.
Quote:
This would destroy any incentive to save and ensure only the very rich are able to maintain long-term investments. It would also be stupidly biased in favor of those who currently have high capital gains taxes (wealthy investors and CEOs).

The progressive tax is stupidly biased towards the rich, too, but you don't cry about that. Currently, capital gains is applied to nearly all returns on investments and, as you point out, the super wealthy are most into investing (because they have the expendable income). As Jubber mentioned before, being a high earner and being wealthy aren't the same. The wealthy can take money and make more money with little work. That return is a form of income but payroll taxes don't apply. That means Soc. Sec. and Medicare (and all other payroll taxes) aren't levied on that income, and it should, if we're trying to be fair. According to the liberal train of thought, the Rich can absorb all these increases, so why not get them on one of their greatest revenue streams?

Quote:
We don't want to live the way the Chinese do. We have those systems because the alternative is worse.

I doubt scaling back departments which could be handled by the individual states is going to plunge us into China (a country who is quickly becoming the worlds economic super-power with rapid growth.)

Quote:
The belief that life is fundamentally fair and anyone, anywhere, at any time, has the means to make it isn't even idealistic...it's childish.

I'm not saying all people will be able to make it in all places and at all times nor am I saying life is fair. I'm saying we're dependant on the government and we shouldn't be.

Quote:
Sup Clinton

Clinton never paid down the debt. Although he had a surplus, last I checked the number, the debt continued to rise during that period.

Edit: Clinton did pay down the debt, but he also accrued more debt than he paid, so he didn't pay down anything. It's more of a pay up :P

Quote:
You say you don't like entitlements but accepting the status quo because it happens to be good for you is itself clinging to an entitlement.

Wait, what? Oh, right. Lol, k.

Fantastique wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
* Start hacking away at government expenses; Dept. of Labor, Education, Agriculture could use some cuts.


Oh god, whyyyyyy! I'm sick to death of people who don't have a decent education, and somehow it makes sense to cut education and make MORE dumb people?! And then we wonder why kids in India are smarter than their American counterparts by leaps and bounds.... In fact, I remember from that "Did you know?" video that India has more honors students than the United States HAS students.

With what face do we dare call ourselves the greatest country in the world?

I don't think I said we should eliminate the Dept. of Education, did I, smart guy? Regardless, education can (and should) be a state affair.

Also, I'm not going to contest the information about honor students in India, but I know India has a population almost four times greater than ours and I'd be curious to know their standards for honors.


Last edited by Eturnalshift on Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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