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Clinton had a surplus because of higher taxes, no wars, and the internet boom. Times change. Clintons surplus isn't viable in the current climate.

Disagree 100%



I agree.

The point stands - American presidents have about as much control over the economy as children with no quarters do over arcade games. They can smack the machine and argue about which way to yank the joystick or which buttons to mash, but the game plays itself all the same.

I'm not a Clinton worshipper. The best that can be said about Clinton is that he didn't do anything stupid or crazy other than screwing a floozy on his desk (which is more than can be said about pretty much any president back to FDR). The worst that can be said about him is that he didn't leverage the strength of the dot-bomb boom to invest in America's future, to reform programs and American government institutions that had been languishing for decades, or deal with the impending threat of China. While it's true he was undermined at every turn by the GOP-dominated Congress, the fact is that neither he nor Obama ever really tried to "change the name of the game" by advancing bold new ideas.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

The spending under FDR didn't do anything to spur the economy until it moved from non-productive make-work jobs to the private sector when the war started and the country had to start building tanks and planes. Dumping money into the economy only provides a short-term bump. To get a real recovery, you have to stimulate the private sector into production, which eventually happened under FDR because of the war, and happened under Reagan (honestly for much the same reason, which was military build-up).

Things are "different now," than they were under Reagan. We didn't have a president attempting to divide people by making high-income earners his scapegoat, complaining about "paying a fair share" while we have around 50% of our citizens carrying none of the tax burden. We didn't have a a pending new entitlement in the works that made businesses go into a holding pattern because they have no idea what the actual costs and obligations of the healthcare bill is going to be:



To Obama's credit, he has made at least a token effort at cutting unnecessary and excessive regulation, but it's not enough to balance the threat of increased taxes and the uncertainty brought on by Obamacare.



That's not shocking. I sometimes think that if we stated that the sky was blue, you'd argue it wasn't, and insist we prove you're wrong...then insist despite ample evidence that we're still wrong.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Explain to me how building the Hoover Dam, laying countless miles of track and wire, and building innumerable public buildings still in use is less "productive" than war production.

You realize tanks and planes don't contribute anything to the national productivity, right? That sort of thing is as "make work" as it gets.



The tax systems of the entire rest of the Western world stand as proof that you are wrong.

Not to mention that taxes for the richest have never been lower in our own history, including the years this country was most prosperous.



What proof do you have that "Obamacare" is more responsible for the depression than Chinese competition, the mortgage crisis and two wars?



No, the fact that I disagree with people who approve of most of what I say and agree with most of my views then agree with people who think I'm stupid and crazy is proof that I'm probably the most objective person you will ever meet in your entire life.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

It's less productive, in terms of growing an economy, because it's a one time expenditure that doesn't generate the possibility of any future growth/revenue. The money spent on tanks and planes doesn't just give someone a job until the tank/plane is done, it creates revenue for the company producing the item, which goes back into the company for maintenance and expansion, pays shareholders and employees, and perpetuates growth.



So we can't compare Reagan and Obama because "things are different now," but a comparison of two (or more) dissimilar systems is legitimate. Thanks for reassuring my lack of faith in our system of higher education.

I'm also glad that I'm being proven wrong by Greece and all the other countries that are falling to shambles doing the exact opposite of what I'm suggesting.



They've also never been lower for around 50% of the country, either, considering that around 50% of us have no federal tax liability. What's your point? It does nothing to change the fact that tax increases (and the threat of them) have historically slowed economic growth, because when you tax something, you get less of it.



Since this isn't a court of law, why don't you tell me what proof you have that those things are more responsible than Obamacare. I mean, I only linked an American CEO telling you why Obamacare is creating uncertainty, so I guess I can understand how you think there's no evidence. The sky is magenta, after all.



Or it could just mean that you're argumentative for no reason, are poorly socialized, and utterly irrational.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

OK, Jubbergun is in brainwashed mode. Time to move on...

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I suppose this means we can stop blaming bush for the recession, no?




I thought you had a disdain for ad hominem arguments aestu, why make one yourself?

Quote out of context. I've said they don't have much power over it short of fucking it up.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

so we should stop congratulating clinton for the surplus then, right?

You know, if this were a court of law, you could plead the fifth.

Then again, while you have the right to silence, you lack the capacity for it.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

That's correct. The guy who really deserves credit is Al Gore.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Only because he invented the internet.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Everytime Jubber throws out the 50% don't pay taxes figure God kills a kitten.

He said about 50%... regardless, commence with the kitten slaying.