Bucket Guild | FUBU BH Forums

I think it's funny that when governments are dealing with fiscal issues, the first thing they attack is education. What a brilliant idea! Let's sacrifice the future to save a few bucks now! It's not like there are any other areas that could be trimmed...idk, tax loop holes, ear marks, general bureaucratic bullshit....right?

In my sister's school, for example, they have gotten rid of almost all security guards and now outsource their janitorial staff (to a company where their employees constantly steal things). She teaches in Philly and fights.school violence has gone up significantly. Bravo government.

They lower funding for textbooks, after school programs, etc...yet still give school administrators (superintendents etc.) huge pay raises. Hilarious. At least we have enough money for all the bombs and weapons we Americans love so much.



I think unions/teachers getting tenure is one of the awful things about education. You want to know why there are so many terrible teachers and students in this country are so inept and lagging behind the rest of the world?

1. You can get automatic raises just by taking a few courses
2. After however many years (it varies by district), you basically can't be fired

It should be run more like a business. I don't get a raise just by completing some certifications. I get a raise when I do good work...you know performance based

I sure as hell could be fired at any time...it should be that way with teachers.



You know teachers simply cheat for students on standardized tests? Just to improve their numbers:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/07/11/teac ... in-schools

*sigh*

My mom is a teacher. She is extremely dedicated and puts in way more work than is healthy for a normal human being. She works 9+ hours a day M-F easy, oftentimes more.. and grades papers on the weekends. She sometimes does teaching for Summer School students. She cares a lot about her students and about her job and stops at nothing to help them succeed.


There are other teachers that don't give two shits and a flying fuck.


I'd wager that most of the problems facing education, at least our current model which is fail as fuck, revolves around parents not being active in their children's education and putting it all on the teacher, particularly in low income areas.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

The problems with education have nothing to do with funding and everything to do with society and culture.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I think it's happening more and more because the results are getting crappier and crappier. Some of this is beyond the control of educators, some of it is the direct result of policies developed by educators. A person I used to be friends with was a teacher, and she always complained how other professionals with similar educations made more money. The reason we aren't still friends was that I finally got fed up and broke down to her how the difference in pay was the result of things like her having 3+ months a year off (with most major holidays guaranteed) and guaranteed job security (tenure).

I think the money we put into education needs to be better spent. School districts that spend more per student than the national average are usually among the worst performers, some that spend the lowest among the best. I realize there are some cultural problems/differences that feed into that, but I don't think "more money" is fixing any of those issues, either.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Agreed, and I apologize if I made you think that I feel funding is the only issue facing education.

Certainly though having updated textbooks, quality computer resources/labs...and you know...basic school security, would be helpful for education...do you not agree?

What we need are:

1. clearly defined national standards measured against a simple, consistent and scalable rubric
2. vocational education and preschool
3. an public domain curriculum and materials - there is nothing in a $200 textbook that can't be captured in a $5 manual printed in monochrome on pulp
4. a federal blacklist on non-core educational programs (anything that isn't math, science, or the traditional humanities)
5. fully fund public institutions and ban donations
6. abolish the right of schools and colleges to manage their own police forces
7. promote administrators from amongst the ranks of full-time educators
8. standardize, rationalize and economize all public college procurement and hardware at the federal level (no more $100M new buildings if the class can be taught in a Quonset hut)

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

No. Most new textbooks suck.

There is no subject that I could not teach to a class of normal individuals with textbooks from 50-100 years ago.



There is no subject that requires computers to be taught. The subjects students are failing are fundamental and have nothing to do with computer science.

If you want to teach computer skills, older technology is better, because it's more hands-on than pressing the green button on a brand-new Dell.




No. School security is a cultural/administrative problem and it should be dealt with as such. I firmly believe that school security is itself the problem, as increasingly, schools as well as society at large have come to rely on force or threat of force rather than respect and social harmony. This is a cowardly and inevitably self-defeating approach.

1. Mandatory school uniforms to prevent cliquish/socially hostile behavior
2. More structured school settings
3. Increase the sheer floor space of campuses to prevent overcrowding and panics
4. Stagger school periods and put schools on the seven-day week, with four-day-a-week schooling
5. More supervision and emphasis on character building and cracking down on bullying/antisocial behavior (rather than focusing merely on the resulting violence)
6. Require all students to be bussed; ban driving to/from school or picking up children at the lot

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I think there needs to be more options and acceptance of vocational/trade classes; plumbing, electrical, landscaping, construction, automotive mechanics and HVAC are all highly lucrative careers/trades and only of those was even explored in my High School. If students could take an elective (HVAC 1-4) throughout HS then they could immediately enter the work force with an invaluable skill. Instead, we're all told that we need to have a college education if we want to be successful... so we study shit that we'll never need to know (or use) in the future just so we can pass some standardized test to get into some school that's going to teach us the bare minimum needed to enter the work force.

I wish High School was more like college where students can choose a 'path' that will give them more focused education rather than forcing the whole gamut of shit down their throats. That was the biggest problem with me - I didn't care about the stuff I didn't care about but I had to take those classes to graduate. For example, if a student knows they have an interest in IT then why not let that student take more advanced math and science classes, advanced computer/networking/programming classes and certification preparation classes and less of foreign languages, performing arts and study hall. At the very least, that student will have a greater understanding of IT and might be valuable without a college education, they'll have chosen what they want to study and they wouldn't have wasted anyone's time with all the fluff bullshit that doesn't add much value to the student.

If High School is supposed to help teach and 'prepare' students for the 'real world', then it's failing miserably.


Cool. I'd love to read your History Book that excludes the last 100 years of history or your science book that doesn't have the latest scientific advancements. Oh, and if you don't mind teaching me how to use a computer with your abacus I'd appreciate it.

Aestu nailed it. That is the one single sentence explanation of our failings in education. Not joking, either.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

Agree with all except #4.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

20th Century History would like to have a word with you...



Agreed, but technology is a big part of our economy, and will continue to be in the future. Children will need practical, hands-on experience with that technology.



Indeed, and there are probably a few more things you can learn using older systems than the new stuff with the OS that does everything for you.



I agree with this to a degree, but the reasons we've come to this point is the direct result of policies and social changes that many of you favored and would continue to support if anyone suggesting going back to more traditional ways.


Nothing will stop people from being people, especially when those people are kids. If they aren't mocking one another over fashion, they'll find something else.


Structure generally requires discipline...I'm all for that.



Both of these would simply cost more money instead of less, and I'm not sure the benefit(s), whatever they might be, would outweigh the costs.



It was my experience that the kids picked out for constant negative attention from the teaching staff (who were, admittedly, all dumber than a bag of stones) weren't actually the kids who were pissing in everyone's cereal and generally creating hate and discontent. They were little shithead Eddie Haskell-type (Google it, bitches) ass-kissers who were only little golden children when the adults were watching. School is also about learning, and learning how to deal with other people, even the negative aspects of those interactions. If anything, there should be less "violence doesn't solve anything" bullshit.



Sounds good on paper, but doesn't work for practical reasons, one of those again being money. There are lots of kids participating in extra-curricular activities that would either need to drive to get home afterwards or be picked up by their parents, and that's only one thing off the top of my head, the inside of which is telling me this would be terribly impractical.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

There's 2900 years of OTHER history out there that are less generally known but just as worthwhile.

Most Americans think the world was created in 1945. 20th century history is pervasive enough in our culture - as well as computer science, for that matter - that teaching it isn't as high a priority as teaching other areas of history that are at least as important but not as well known and contain most of the same themes.

Besides, you don't need a fully updated textbook to teach "20th century history". So what if the textbook stops in 1945/1953/1969/1990? Those last few decades are close enough to the surface that kids will be exposed to them in day-to-day life.



Nah. Most kids aren't going into high-tech work. The level of technical proficiency necessary to get by in today's world is pervasive in our society.

The number of kids deficient in computer science are grossly outnumbered by those deficient in fundamentals such as math, reading, and science.

And if you really want to understand computer science, the fundamentals haven't changed since 1980. Computer components...programming code...the underlying principles of operation...the implementation may be more sophisticated, but the basics are still the same. Understand the basics and everything else can be picked up on the fly.



Agree 100.

C:/qbasic


The premise of teaching and parenting is that they can have an impact on kids and their lives.



Well, what's the cost of security and behavior issues? As they say, "Quality is economy".

Besides, again, I'd just use a ton of Quonset huts.


I completely agree, but that is not taught by a lasseiz-faire approach. I would teach the kind of conflict-resolution methods used in the Army - running laps, team-building exercises like yanking ropes or back-to-back, or simply making kids sit in the corner.

Like I said, character building doesn't mean "tolerate bullying but not retaliation".



It would arguably save money on gas, and also time: if you don't have to pick up your kid, you're free to work that much more.

My focus here is on the behavioral and administrative issues associated with 2500 parents trying to pick up their kids at the same time, and how cars and teens don't mix. Also, I believe education should be a great equalizer, and as such, I want to detach kids from cars to prevent negative behaviors.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I'm sorry, but old used textbooks will fall apart. You know...basic wear and tear since students will be using them year in and year out. Are you suggesting that your 100 year old textbook would do just fine? I'm not saying schools need every new edition with minor edits...clearly that's just textbook industry scamming...but having textbooks that aren't falling apart would be helpful. Have you ever seen an inner city school's materials?



I disagree....high tech work is where A LOT of growth is. Internet businesses, etc... Computer science is hugely important. For example, all the highest paid people in my company are developers. When we hired them, we found it was a HUGE pain to find good, solid developers. This is a fact.

Besides, most kids aren't going to be motivated enough to simply "pick things up on the fly" Have you ever even had a conversation with an average kid?



Right, because software that can help children with learning math, reading, and science doesn't exist........oh wait.



Also agree...so maybe having a newer system that can also run older programs might be a good idea? You know, so they can now how to use EVERYTHING? Just a thought.



I agree, simply throwing money at the situation doesn't solve anything...but surely cutting funding so drastically won't help either. Unless you honestly think it will?

You are all overlooking after school activities and funding for the arts...both things that are promptly attacked in school budgets. Studies have shown how participation in music, after school athletics, and various other activities help child development both in and out of the classroom. Do you really think it's a good thing that schools are simply abolishing music programs, art programs, drama, athletics...all to save a few bucks that they can just give to administrators?

Yes. Those are red herrings. If kids need better development the answer is parents need to stop sucking.



People - everyone - learned to read and write for thousands of years before the invention of computers. If the kid needs remedial education then that is for parents and an instructor. What the kid needs is hands-on attention and discipline. Computers will not help.



Then the solution is to improve primary/secondary education in the fundamentals to widen the pool of potential developers.



If the kid is not learning, it is not because the textbook is dilapidated.

Yes I think most 100-year-old textbooks would do just fine for most subjects worth teaching in high school or early college.

I'm not seriously suggesting using textbooks that are literally 100 years old (although I personally still do). I am saying that curriculum should be standardized and textbooks should be printed in hundreds of millions and made standard for decades on end - none of this switching curriculum every year. Textbooks should be printed on pulp in plain monochrome. That's how you save money and teach kids.

If a textbook is destroyed, get another copy of the same textbook used for half a century, coast to coast, for $5. Massive economy of scale.



Funding will make no more difference - either way - than it does in North Korean politics. There's always enough that those at the top can skim and neglect, and adding more won't make them care to distribute it properly.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

"Teenagers are bad with cars" is piss-poor logic. Of course they're not great with cars. They're novices behind the wheel. Someone should commission a study to see if older people getting their license for the first time are any more/less likely to have/cause accidents than teenagers. It's not the age that is a factor, it's experience. Letting people drive later is just going to change the age of the people having accidents and making mistakes due to inexperience.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste