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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:34 pm  
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Azelma wrote:
Zaryi wrote:
We'll see how long it takes my grandfather to call my dad to tell him to rein me in for mentioning 'Israel' and 'apartheid' in the same sentence.


The sad thing is that so many people support every arab country and allow them to continually oppress anyone who isn't Muslim. The fact remains, if you are in an arab country and not Muslim, you are a second class citizen.


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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:36 pm  
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Zaryi wrote:
Someone mentioned on my FB post regarding this that even if this officially ends the apartheid/Palestians regain their stolen statehood, there will still be bigotry and animosity. If you believe this, there's an Amazing PBS PoV where they take Israeli and Palestian youth and have them debate and discuss everything. It's vey telling and well worth the watch.

I don't agree. Two-state solutions have never brought lasting peace, whether it's India/Pakistan, Timor/Indonesia, Eritiea/Ethiopia, or what have you.

The only way that those kinds of ethnic squabbles get resolved is the way they've historically gotten resolved before the UN policy of balkanizing every puerile culture like preschoolers, telling them to go sit in opposite corners, which is people just learning to get along. Typically, this involves a lot of people getting killed until finally some sort of will for peace and consensus emerges. That is how peace was made in Europe, and that is why the American Civil War made us a stronger and better nation. Thus I believe the only long-term hope for peace in the region is political unification, the enfranchisement of the Palestinians, and the dismantling of the ghetto walls.

Despite the enduring failure of two-state solutions to petty ethnic squabbles, I believe a two-state solution is the best option here, because it will resolve two fundamental issues: the lack of political centralization amongst the Palestinians that makes peace so hard to achieve, and it will break up the current impasse by changing the situation and forcing both sides to sit down and talk about what to do next.


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Last edited by Aestu on Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:36 pm  
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quadtard wrote:
Azelma wrote:
Zaryi wrote:
We'll see how long it takes my grandfather to call my dad to tell him to rein me in for mentioning 'Israel' and 'apartheid' in the same sentence.


The sad thing is that so many people support every arab country and allow them to continually oppress anyone who isn't Muslim. The fact remains, if you are in an arab country and not Muslim, you are a second class citizen.


Cite examples.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:57 pm  
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inb4 someone tells Aestu that Muslims will attack western embasies, attack Christian churches, capture and kill non-Muslims, wage a holy war against the west and non-Muslims, capture and kill Muslims that are friendly towards non-Muslims, threaten to blow Isreal off the face of the Earth... and also inb4 Aestu starts splitting hairs, telling people why they're wrong, not reading any real links to real sources, starts arguing semantics and then uses the, "Well, that's not all Muslims" argument.
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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:16 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
The Holocaust is not the here and now. You could just as easily say that "well, violent crime in America is really the fault of the Europeans dumping their problem children here".


No one's talking about the Holocaust, we're talking about European bigots sweeping an unwanted race of people into the area their historically associated with so they wouldn't have to deal with having them around Europe anymore. The practice of either forcing Jews out or encouraging them to leave dates back to at least the Reconquista. It's a major historical event that was the result of an even more important historical event that happened in the last 100 years, and is the basis of the entire problem. Unlike whatever weird course your brain is attempting to chart, WWII>send the Jews off to the Holy Land>force the people there from their homes/land>what we have now demonstrates a logical progression of events/tracking of events back to a suggested cause. What you're suggesting is...
1. Europeans settle in North America
2. ??????
3. Violent Crime/Profit

In other words, I still can't believe someone who is (allegedly) so smart is such a dumbass.

Aestu wrote:
Those hikers were spies, and NATO made the choice to waste time and momentum responding to an irrelevant speech in a pompous manner.


If those hikers had been spies...nvm, explanation would be beyond you and you'd still argue. Those three were spies like I'm a marathon runner.

And WTF...NATO responded to what speech?

Aestu wrote:
Cite examples.


Aestu wrote:
This isn't a court of law.


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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:12 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
inb4 someone tells Aestu that Muslims will attack western embasies, attack Christian churches, capture and kill non-Muslims, wage a holy war against the west and non-Muslims, capture and kill Muslims that are friendly towards non-Muslims, threaten to blow Isreal off the face of the Earth... and also inb4 Aestu starts splitting hairs, telling people why they're wrong, not reading any real links to real sources, starts arguing semantics and then uses the, "Well, that's not all Muslims" argument.


It's a valid argument. So do Christians. Your point?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:34 pm  
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Jubbergun wrote:
No one's talking about the Holocaust, we're talking about European bigots sweeping an unwanted race of people into the area their historically associated with so they wouldn't have to deal with having them around Europe anymore. The practice of either forcing Jews out or encouraging them to leave dates back to at least the Reconquista. It's a major historical event that was the result of an even more important historical event that happened in the last 100 years, and is the basis of the entire problem. Unlike whatever weird course your brain is attempting to chart, WWII>send the Jews off to the Holy Land>force the people there from their homes/land>what we have now demonstrates a logical progression of events/tracking of events back to a suggested cause.


This is a case study in why you need to stop getting your information from Wikipedia and Google and instead go read some books. You think you understand something because you know of ONE historical event 600 years ago from Wikipedia. The historical cycle of the Diaspora has been going on WAY longer than that.

The situation that exists today, so far as the relationship between Jews, Arabs and Europeans is concerned, is immediately attributable to much more significant events before and after the Reconquista: the demolition of the Second Temple and later Jerusalem itself in 69 AD and 135 AD, which was what immediately forced the Judeans to migrate en masse from their homes; and the Versailles conference in 1919 AD, in which a lot of really bad decisions were made at the urging of Zionists without understanding the Arab situation. There were also the expulsions from England and France in the 10th-13th centuries long before the Reconquista.

Even the events of 69 AD were secondary and attributable to a much longer chain of events going back to the Selucid invasion a hundred years prior (immortalized in the Hanukkah tradition and a famous Roman story about a circle on the beach) and before that to a long series of wars the Judeans waged with the Egyptians, Babylonians and Philistines that had the long-term effect of cornering the Judeans.

So don't talk about the Reconquista like it's a big part of the story or even important at all. Go read some real history books so you get the entire picture.

Either way, it's irrelevant. What, you think the solution is for the EU to get over its anti-Semitism and let the Israelis pack their bags and come home? If not then what does it matter?

Jubbergun wrote:
If those hikers had been spies...nvm, explanation would be beyond you and you'd still argue. Those three were spies like I'm a marathon runner.


...they'd be wearing CIA T-shirts?

They're taking a hike on an unscenic border of a country we're in a state of cold war with, rather than off somewhere very similar but NOT politically dangerous like the Himalayas or Tibet. What do you think they're doing?

Jubbergun wrote:
And WTF...NATO responded to what speech?


That you don't know what I'm making reference to is another example of your reliance on entirely reactive information uptake - Googling for scraps to corroborate your preformed views, rather than getting general information and forming views from there.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:47 am  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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You know, Ethan, it's hardly an insult to be called ignorant by a guy that routinely fails at reading in his own language.

Let's take, as an example, this bit:

Jubbergun wrote:
The practice of either forcing Jews out or encouraging them to leave dates back to at least the Reconquista.


Now since you seem to have serious issues with how certain prepositions and other identifiers work, I'm going to explain this to you using the smallest words possible. See the part in bold? That part makes the sentence mean that the history of antisemitism in Europe goes back as far as the period I'm discussing but might possibly go back even farther. So that means that all the other tedium and bullshit you spewed just for the purpose of showing us how clever you (think you) are was nothing more than wasted space. The only thing you were doing was adding to my list by taking the timeline back even farther than I went and adding more examples of how this problem has its roots in Europe. My point was not that the Reconquista caused this situation, it was that European antisemitism did, and that Europe's antisemitism had a long history that included the Reconquista. How you read any of that paragraph and came to the conclusions you did, I neither know nor care, but it's a glaring example of your inability to understand clearly written prose.

Not only that, but everything you wrote is something someone could Google (and again with "Nice Google," could we try something a bit more original?). Given how often you link something thinking it means one thing only to find out that it means something different (or something completely opposite that which you think it means) when someone actually reads all the fine print, I'm tempted to hit a search engine just to see how wrong you are.

Semi-Literate Blowhard wrote:
...they'd be wearing CIA T-shirts?

They're taking a hike on an unscenic border of a country we're in a state of cold war with, rather than off somewhere very similar but NOT politically dangerous like the Himalayas or Tibet. What do you think they're doing?


If the episode of Top Gear I watched last week is any indication, you're making a lot of assumptions. Mr. Clarkson and company were flown into Iraq and given the task of driving to Jerusalem...which for some odd reason they attempted to do by driving into Iran (where they were barred because Iran won't allow anyone from the BBC in). The country they drove through was very scenic, and in the norther part of Iraq. Parts of it they showed reminded me of the nearby Skyline Drive. It's not all desert sand and camel shit, you insipid twit.

What they were doing should be obvious, especially in light of a conversation we had here a while back concerning some young dumbass running off to Libya to fight with the rebels so he'd have some cool stories to tell. These jackholes were looking for some ADVENTURE, and were probably checking out old ruins and nature when they got snagged by overzealous Iranians who had about as much of an idea regarding where the border was as our idiot hikers did. If they had really been spies, it's doubtful the Iranians would have made their capture public knowledge, since they would have been too busy torturing them for information. It's also incredibly doubtful they would have released them even after more than two years of captivity. Of course, there's the very real possibility that the whole thing was arranged by Rupert Murdoch's secret ninja squad so that there'd be some exciting news to divert attention away from the wire-tapping scandal in the UK, and we'd be foolish to overlook that possibility, now wouldn't we?

Paranoid Buffoon wrote:
That you don't know what I'm making reference to is another example of your reliance on entirely reactive information uptake - Googling for scraps to corroborate your preformed views, rather than getting general information and forming views from there.


I was speaking only about the release of the "spies" (LOL) and its impact on Obama's UN speech...so unless NATO had a response to Obama's speech, I have no idea why you'd bother to bring it up. If I were pulling a "NICE GOOGLE," I wouldn't have to ask what the fuck is running through your addled mind and why it matters.

You would think someone wouldn't complain about "googling for scraps to corroborate your preformed views" after clearly having done so themselves in the past, especially after you linked that Wiki on the 14th Amendment and missed the entire paragraph that proved my point while disproving your own. At least when I "google for scraps," I don't link shit that disproves my "preformed views" the way you do. Quit projecting your shortcomings onto me, thank you very much.

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:58 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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TLDR: "I'm not interested in correcting my ignorance."


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:05 am  
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I know you're not, which is the primary reason you have to project your foibles onto to everyone around you. Otherwise you'd be forced to admit you're less than perfect, your world-view would be completely shattered, and you'd probably give killing yourself a real go instead of playing around the edges of it by starving and dehydrating yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:28 am  
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so instead of parachuting all navy seal/high tech like into an area that's close to something important, the spies decided to add an extra 2-6 weeks on their spy assignment by hiking through the border?

I'm sorry, but I imagine the CIA is better at what they do than simply mexican marching into iran and hoping for the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:42 am  
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Usdk wrote:
so instead of parachuting all navy seal/high tech like into an area that's close to something important, the spies decided to add an extra 2-6 weeks on their spy assignment by hiking through the border?


Plausible deniability.

Usdk wrote:
I'm sorry, but I imagine the CIA is better at what they do than simply mexican marching into iran and hoping for the best.


No, they're not. No....they're not.


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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:10 pm  
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Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:52 pm  
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*Israel would pay me in US tax dollars to move to his land.


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 Post subject: Re: Palestine Tries to Become a State
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:58 pm  
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This really was the only option left for the Palestinians. There will be NO tangible result from negotiations. None. Zip.

And if Netanyahu thinks that the world sees him as an arbiter for peace while continuing to build settlements, he's more of a moron than I thought. How can you expect peace and a two state solution if you continually build on land so you can claim for yourself later during the border assignments? Sorry, it's just not going to happen.


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