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Yes.

If someone is sitting overseas ordering and planning terrorist plots which are then going into effect under his watch and under his command, I believe that meets criteria for imminent danger, assuming it is continuous in nature and is likely to result in the deaths of other citizens.

I suppose we could have issued a court summons which he would have most likely ignored among lulzing hard while still planning and organizing attacks on US citizens.

Yes, we should be selective over who we protect. In the event that we have to choose between a durkadurk plotting to kill other citizens from overseas while within a terrorist organization, we should selectively choose to protect people who have no role in this international clusterfuck known as the war on terror, aka innocent bystanders. Civilians.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

Toasting an 18 grain bread

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

So you believe in a guilty until proven innocent structure then

I find it incredibly terrifying that anyone would accept this as being just.

There's a definite difference between being under suspicion based on some evidence (however strong or weak) and making a public statement to the effect that one considers oneself partisan to a war against the country.

Legalistic arguments in an inappropriate context weaken the strength of the law.
Unenforceable law weakens law itself.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Didn't we just recently have a conversation about utilitarian thinking and the ends not necessarily justifying the means?

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Thank you. This, basically.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

I don't understand americans

The key to understanding Americans is to fully internalize the implications of three very simple facts:



You need to understand how the extraordinary problems this country deals with on a day-to-day basis, caused by those three fundamentally American characteristics, necessarily demand extraordinary measures.

In this case, it's how these national characteristics have led us to be the object of international terrorism while you Canadians are off getting high on maple syrup and nationalized healthcare.

We are involved with these freaks in the Middle East because American greed has led us to engage them for their oil (I'm not referring to the war in Iraq, I'm referring to our long-term stake in the region) rather than make alternative plans, because American greed demands cheap energy, and the arrogance that coincides with that greed leads Americans to think they can do the impossible (make deals with the devil, while redeeming him to God). The fact Americans think they can somehow get rich doing this appeals to their greed and seals the deal.

And so we take extraordinary measures to combat this threat. Which is what this discussion is about.

Only in America do you see these retarded arguments about the free market because American greed drives its people to think they can all be winners in the Jungle, as if every gambler at a casino can and will hit the jackpot.

Only in America do we have to have everything under lock and key, and both citizens and security forces have to put ultimate faith in high-powered weapons because American greed and hucksterism leads every American to think that kind of wild free-for-all will inevitably play out in his favor.

Only in America do we see the kind of profound social and economic chaos driven by the stubborn refusal of Americans to do anything for their fellow citizens. Because obviously no society can function without some sort of community effort, and because Americans will not put forth that effort freely, implied violence is therefore a necessary catalyst to keep things going on a day-to-day basis.

Only in America do we have these ludicrous arguments about "free trade" and currency valuation, because Americans are so profoundly unwilling to accept a marginal reduction in their standard of living to ensure their long-term prosperity. And so we have this upside-down view that Wal-Mart is the house of God and the USPS is the work of the devil.

You people in Canada can make do with solutions that amount to "let's all get along". That doesn't work here, because Americans are never content, because greed drives an endless cycle of fear and instability, and because the only thing that keeps America semi-civilized is treating our Constitution like the word of God, subject to the interpretation of false prophets.

That is the factual answer to your question, Arthur. Does it satisfy you?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You might understand if you lived here, along with your family, friends, girlfriend(s), co-workers, close acquaintances, favorite little old lady running the checkout at the grocery store that reminds you of your grandmother, pets, elderly neighbor that you mow the lawn for and she sends you homemade cookies during the holidays, etc.

Canada doesn't face any danger. Grats, you guys don't have retarded interventionist foreign policy (sup Israel?). In fact, does Canada have foreign policy? But I digress, you do not need to worry to the same extent about terrorism that we do.

Do I think about it every day? No. Fuck no. I hardly think and worry about it at all. Even if a terrorist attack were to occur, it's very improbable that I would be affected given the geographical diversity of the United States and the attractiveness of other highly populated target areas.

It's a matter of principle to me. If you are an American on paper only, and basically advocate for 'durkadurkadeath to teh infidelz', you essentially give up your rights to a fair trial. You are an enemy combatant. You are giving orders to kill Americans, and these orders are being carried out, with or without success.

If you are inaccessible to stand trial by force, and you refuse to come to your native land that you love so much to stand trial, why should we send a bunch of special forces bros on an extremely dangerous mission to 'capture you alive' when there will most likely be several possible outcomes, including combinations of each other:

1) We capture you alive, no casualties sustained on our part.
2) We capture you alive, at the expense of the life(lives) of US service members.
3) We attempt to capture you alive, but you go all durkadurkajihad mode and bolt for an AK47, or you're wearing a bomb belt..whatever. You are killed by US gunfire to avoid personnel losses. Human Rights shitstorm ensues. [sound familiar anyone?]
4) We attempt to capture you alive, but you go all durkadurkajihad mode and detonate a bomb belt, killing you and taking out a few soldiers as well. No capture, dead soldiers, inevitable bitching about human rights.
5) We attempt to capture you alive, and at some point the operation goes full scale shit city. See: Mogadishu.


I guess placing value on human life is more important for terrorists than soldiers and civilians the terrorist is targeting.

in b4 due process, we don't know he's a terrorist, etc.

He's a terrorist. Okay?

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

React tried to explain to Arthur that he doesn't understand American approaches because Canadians don't deal with American problems.

I tried to explain to Arthur exactly what it is he doesn't understand about Americans that is the reason why Canadians don't deal with American problems.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Actions (and the ensuing justifications) like this work to prove that we are what the terrorists claim we are.

We knew where he was, if he was that big of a threat we would have been able to capture and try him.

Even if the special forces would have taken losses, they would have lost their lives defending Americans and upholding just values, which is exactly what they signed up for.

We have completely forsaken even the pretext of acting as a moral and just country.

Dvergar /
Quisling

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

He who will not defend his life does not deserve to live.

The Golden Rule is a double edged sword...no less significant than the obligation to treat others as we would be treated is the obligation to hold others to the same standard.

To fail to do so is to call that core value - equanimity, that actions have consequences - into question. That is the essence of justice, and to betray that value is the ultimate moral failing. To deny the distinction between right and wrong.

What in this episode is a sign of moral decay is the belief that our core values are negotiable. There is no such thing as "negotiable" values. This person made the choice to turn his back on those values - on his country.

This isn't McCarthyism. This isn't Gestapo tactics. There's no secrecy, no doubt, no ambiguity, no mistruth - qualities that always attend any miscarriage of justice.

The truth, what this man did, is not in question. If truth is not in question then neither is justice.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Homerun, out of the goddamn ballpark and smashed someone's front window of their car.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

so because AQ isn't a formal military organization, this doesn't count?

It's still clear cut to me.