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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... rialPage_h

Not sure what to say about this, other than that it is worrisome.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I didn't read the article (the WSJ link and the "THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO CHOOSE YOUR MINISTER" title completely turned me off), but if churches don't want to be scrutinized by the government, maybe they shouldn't be entirely exempt from taxes.

RETIRED.
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Unions don't pay taxes, either, and the same can be said of many other organizations...and none of those organizations are specifically exempted from government interference by the First Amendment. Something tells me if that if the government were to start interfering in the selection/dismissal of union leaders you wouldn't be supportive.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

The article is one big fat red herring.

The matter of contention is that the employer broke employment law in a way that has absolutely nothing to do with religious issues and is now trying to invoke status as a religious organization to justify doing something illegal and unethical.

Then the issue is hijacked by libertarians arguing that deciding about sick leave issues equates to interpreting Scripture.

Should religious organizations be free to ignore health and safety law? Environmental law? Business contract law? Any law they feel like, just because they happen to be religious? Why should they be able to ignore labor law, just because they say so, and how is the government making sure they honor their obligations any different than any other law enforcement?

Just another piece of WSJ propaganda eaten up by people who internalize only the invective without analyzing the facts.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

OK. Predictable Aestu is predictable.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

It is clear I have read the article. It is proof that you are brainwashed that you reflexively deny inconvenient reality and substitute your own, so that you can maintain logically untenable ideological viewpoints.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

No, it's not clear that you read the article. If you had, you'd note that even if this were merely an issue of employment law (which it isn't), that the plaintiff for whom the EEOC is arguing bypassed a reconciliation process (standard in many employment contracts). You'd probably also realize that one of the terms of employment was that the church recognized her as a ministerial agent, and that with the congregation (not the officers of the school/church, but the entire body of the institution) revoking her...certification(?)...she was no longer eligible for employment.

What terms/conditions an individual must meet to be an officer of the church is what has become the point of contention here. Matters of church policy such as who is fit for the clergy/lay leader are outside the bounds of government interference, and is the reason that the "ministerial exception" exists in the first place. The suit attempts to redefine what qualifies as clergy, who have always, especially in the Roman Catholic Church and its antecedents, held roles as part of their clerical office not directly related to their religious service.

It has become apparent that you either cannot read adequately or, to paraphrase your own words, you are so warped that you reflexively deny inconvenient reality and substitute your own so that you can generate logically untenable viewpoints solely for the sake of arguing.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

You talk about bureaucratic tyranny but that's a piece of bureaucratic bullshit if I've ever seen one.

There's a difference between being defrocked and a backdoor pink slip.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Bureaucratic Government Nonsense=/=Bureaucratic Religious Nonsense. I'm stuck with the government, but I don't have to be a member of that or any other church. I'm also terribly tickled that given your usual endorsement of "the ends justify the means" that you're bitching about anyone "back dooring" their way to what they want.

I'm not endorsing or condoning what the church/school appears to have done here, but there are broader implications. Not sure what the best we can hope for here is. If the employee was wronged, they deserve justice, but there should be a way to balance that without tramping on the edges of the First Amendment.

Hypothetical: If the sick leave in question was taken due to complications from something the church would frown upon, like an abortion or STD, would they still be in the wrong? Would it be acceptable for the government to force a reinstatement to the clergy if that status had been revoked due to a moral lapse that would warrant suspension/expulsion from such duties under the laws/edicts/beliefs of the church?

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

you mean like fucking a kid? they don't seem to have a problem with that in the catholic church.

You're projecting. I've never claimed the ends justify the means. Rule of law is a consistent theme in my viewpoints.

This right here is the hypocrisy behind the libertarian viewpoint. You do not live on an island; you are most definitely "stuck" with this church and whatever problems they create as part of our national community. Choosing to ignore those problems out of greed and small-mindedness doesn't change that those problems will come to exist and become everyone's problem if they are allowed to proceed unchecked.

Obvious real-world example is polygamy. Who is going to wind up footing the bill when some redneck has 100 kids? Do you really think they will all just starve to death and leave you in peace?



Yes.

The dynamic is a professional one. The relationship is business to contractor/employee.
The distinction you are drawing is personal.

If they want to excommunicate her that is fine, but they must still honor their obligations as an employer. And employers have an obligation to not fire people for getting sick.

If we were to decide that they were not in the wrong, the only way that could be enforced would be by doing what you oppose which is courts deciding on theological issues.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Unless there's contract, it shouldn't even be an issue for any part of the government.

EOE is bad legislation, especially at a federal level.

Inb4 shitstorm.

No shitstorm necessary.

This just amounts to, "I got mine".

"I'm not sick, so anyone who happens to get sick, shouldn't have a problem."

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.