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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:07 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Usdk wrote:
if they were relying on themselves they might have had the sense to get the fuck out of a below sea level city.

its not like the hurricane snuck up on them.


Point conceded. Let's assume a hypothetical similar scenario. What then?


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:30 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Don't know. I fail to see any scenario in which a nation is in immediate jeapardy in which the government wouldn't act.


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:29 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
if they were relying on themselves they might have had the sense to get the fuck out of a below sea level city.

Pretty sure most of the people who were still in the city were too poor to find accommodations elsewhere, champ.


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 Post subject: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:47 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Usdk wrote:
Don't know. I fail to see any scenario in which a nation is in immediate jeapardy in which the government wouldn't act.


Libertarian* nation. Libertarianism as a personal philosophy is admirable but fails to address that if shit hits the fan, a Libertarian* nation would not fare so well with 'Rely on myself and the kindness of others.'


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:00 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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So mayo, would you NOT walk out of a city and head to higher ground when a hurricane is coming? I mean you pretend to be a person who thinks outside the box. Being in an area that is below sea level would be a horrible location during a hurricane, right?

There's a difference between poor and stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:13 am  
Blathering Buffoon
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Usdk wrote:
So mayo, would you NOT walk out of a city and head to higher ground when a hurricane is coming? I mean you pretend to be a person who thinks outside the box. Being in an area that is below sea level would be a horrible location during a hurricane, right?

There's a difference between poor and stupid.


Yeah duh, when there's a hurricane coming it's best to just walk around aimlessly, and just hang-out outside.


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:19 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Dvergar wrote:
Usdk wrote:
So mayo, would you NOT walk out of a city and head to higher ground when a hurricane is coming? I mean you pretend to be a person who thinks outside the box. Being in an area that is below sea level would be a horrible location during a hurricane, right?

There's a difference between poor and stupid.


Yeah duh, when there's a hurricane coming it's best to just walk around aimlessly, and just hang-out outside.


so if you had 48 hours, how far could you go?

would you take a bus to higher ground, or would you just sit around and expect the government to save your life for you?

Oh right, I'm talking to a leftist. obviously they'll wait on the government to solve their fucking problems.


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:33 am  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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And then cry when they are stranded on their roofs, baking in the sun and starving.

A Libertarian* is going to say insurance markets should be used to deter people building/rebuilding in high risk areas, and that states should be the ones running their own emergency aids.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:57 am  
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Weena wrote:
And then cry when they are stranded on their roofs, baking in the sun and starving.

A Libertarian* is going to say insurance markets should be used to deter people building/rebuilding in high risk areas, and that states should be the ones running their own emergency aids.


Insurance markets also gave higher rates to blacks and people with chronic and/or congenital illnesses until the feds made them cut it out. Is that fair, is that just?

Why states? Why not cities? Why not every man for himself? Why the STATE level? Why not go back and break up the country into 50 little Monaco-sized countries with full control of their own affairs while we're at it? Hell, why stop there, we could break up the country at the county level into 600 independent nations?

Let's pretend we play it your way. New York has probably 20 times the wealth, population and resources of a Midwestern state. What, should they just sit on it? What are those Midwesterners supposed to do, just move? Accept wage slavery? How long do you think people would accept government with NO transfer of wealth from wealthy regions to poor regions before the country descended into civil war?

What makes you think that New York's advantage would diminish and not grow over time? ECONOMY OF SCALE. The big rich states would get richer and the poor or small states would get poorer. This is a constant in history, big countries always have the advantage over small ones and their leverage will always grow with time. This is why the overwhelming trend in the history of the world has been towards political and economic consolidation.

The fact that San Francisco sits on a fault line would NOT make people move away any more than it already does for that very same reason which is that it is a wealthy and established community, and that will be a stronger influence on events than "the free market" or the actual merits of the topography. The only "change" would be massive suffering for disaster-prone areas that AREN'T super-rich.

In 1906 SF was levelled by a quake and fire, it had been established the city was situated on earthquake-prone land, and people STILL decided to rebuild on the site. If what you say didn't happen when we had basically no regulation what makes you think it will now?

I challenge you to show me a single example, ever, in the history of the entire world, where a federal state has been successfully managed with no internal transfer of wealth. It didn't work in the days of Pompeii and it won't work now.

There have been many cultures that were undermined or wiped out in large part by inability to respond effectively to disasters - example would be the Mycenaean Dark Age. When there were disasters and governments didn't handle the problem, the result was civil disorder and the fall of an entire civilization. Same with Rome after the Punic Wars, people came home to ruined farms and the government basically said, "Eff you, deal with it, be resourceful etc." The result was dictatorship. Same with the Hundred Years War and the French government telling people to "just deal with" the destruction of their property by forces totally beyond their control.

And no early America does not count because the standard of living was abyssal and the human cost was horrendous (Grapes of Wrath) and we had the benefit of exploitation of abundant natural resources that have since been exhausted (gold, fur, wood).

Even if your idea wasn't totally 100% impractical in terms of economics and society, politically it's 100% impossible. Libertarianism is fundamentally incompatible with democratic government. People are NOT going to sit there and just "die in a corner".

Whether programs are at least partially constructive (FEMA) or just handouts (EDT), what you don't grasp is that it is those programs that, even though they benefit other people, benefit you in that they prevent this country from descending into riots and popular revolution. If those programs did not exist in some form, the "have nots" would burn down your house and take your stuff.

The lasseiz-faire option is nothing but pure, willful ignorance. Aristocrats have been preaching the "deal with it, it will work itself out, people need to toughen up" bullshit in every time and place and the results have been invariably bad.

If the federal administration doesn't deal with problems too big for regions to handle then people will overthrow the government. Simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:11 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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States are capable of handling the majority of disasters that afflict them.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over federal resources supplementing state resources in situations where the state can not be expected to handle an extreme situation.

But what we have now is the federal government going "don't worry about it, we'll bail you out over and over". Now (this is only one small reason of a large number), instead of just a small part of the country suffering, and people having the opportunity to get away from the crappy states (who are then going to go - "maybe we should be less crappy") we have the entire country suffering.

Quote:
I challenge you to show me a single example, ever, in the history of the entire world, where a federal state has been successfully managed with no internal transfer of wealth.


Why should I bother? Last time I met your challenge, you disregarded the answer.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:03 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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When was that?

You didn't answer my central point. State level is arbitrary. What's the fundamental advantage?


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:18 pm  
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Weena wrote:
States are capable of handling the majority of disasters that afflict them.


No they aren't. Rich states are capable of handling the majority of disasters that afflict them. You know that thing in the EU, with Greece leeching off the productivity and economic strength of Germany (and to a lesser extent, France and GB)? The USA is like that, except it's been that way for two centuries, and instead of just Greece, we've got Alaska, the entire South (not counting Maryland, and minus the urban centers in Texas, Virginia, and Georgia), most of the non-Great-Lakes midwest, Michigan, and all the Rocky Mountain states other than Colorado leeching off the Northeast and Pacific Coast (and Chicago). And it's not negotiable. And you stupid fuckers vote Republican despite all the socialist-style support you get from Blue states.

Weak states are only capable of dying alone, gasping for breath. That's exactly what happens without federal oversight.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:33 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Weena wrote:
States are capable of handling the majority of disasters that afflict them.


No they aren't. Rich states are capable of handling the majority of disasters that afflict them. You know that thing in the EU, with Greece leeching off the productivity and economic strength of Germany (and to a lesser extent, France and GB)? The USA is like that, except it's been that way for two centuries, and instead of just Greece, we've got Alaska, the entire South (not counting Maryland, and minus the urban centers in Texas, Virginia, and Georgia), most of the non-Great-Lakes midwest, Michigan, and all the Rocky Mountain states other than Colorado leeching off the Northeast and Pacific Coast (and Chicago). And it's not negotiable. And you stupid fuckers vote Republican despite all the socialist-style support you get from Blue states.

Weak states are only capable of dying alone, gasping for breath. That's exactly what happens without federal oversight.


Central to Conservative dogma is that spending/socialism is only bad when it does not help them directly. When was the last time you saw a conservative complain about the massive gas/oil subsidies or the mess that is our agricultural system? Never because it is entirely a me me me world for these "champions of freedom."


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:10 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capita_(nominal)

what


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 Post subject: Re: More stupid crap to talk about
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:41 pm  
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French Faggot
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Quote:
The figures are in millions of nominal dollars, unadjusted for inflation or purchasing power disparities between the states.


And the darkened states on this map are fairly reflective of what I said, other than North Carolina deserving a bit more credit than I was giving it. And raw output isn't the same thing as economic stability.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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