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I don't think it will happen without large amounts of suffering/tragedy/uprising first. A huge natural disaster or war (civil or worldwide) could cause it, or possibly an economic depression that surpasses what happened in the 1930s. I think that certain ideas have become so entrenched in American society (mainly selfishness and greed) that no matter the new tax/law change whether it be higher taxes or lower, increased welfare or decreased, they will be completely ineffective because too many will abuse/subvert a change in policies. The problem doesn't lie with just politicians or just the corporations or just the poor, it lies within the current structure and fundamental ideas of America as a whole.

This is a complete guess but I'd say maybe widespread change could occur towards the end of my generation's (current college students/young adults) lifetime.

Well, the loopholes that currently exist only exist because of all the complexities in the tax code that come from your deductions, interest payments, exemptions, etc. Much like a sales tax at a register, you pay a flat rate and there isn't much that you can do about it. If this method of taxation worked similarly, where each paycheck and transaction had a 9% tax levied against it, then I have a hard time believing there could be any way for a loophole. Seems so cut and dry if all deductions and exemptions are eliminated. My concern is revenues and how it's going to hurt the poor.

During the debate a few nights ago the moderator from Bloomberg said that Bloomberg's analysis of the plan generates less revenue than our current tax code. Cain said, "Your analysis is wrong", but I haven't found anything about Cain's analysis. I'm sure I'm not the first, but I've contacted the Cain campaign asking if they can release some real numbers on the campaign website. Right now we don't know how the Cain campaign says they're going to raise the same amount of money and under what conditions and assumptions -- so if he can put something out there to contest all the individual analysis of the plan (which there are many) then I think we'd get a better understanding of how it would play out.

I'll post any updates should I get a reply.

So the question is whether the current system will increase the supply of bread and circuses, descend to the level of a police state, or collapse into anarchy.

As I see it, we have one of two futures ahead of us:
1. Soylent Green
2. National Socialism

You didn't really answer my question but then again I guess I'm the only person with an unhealthy obsession with staring into the crystal ball.



Barter and non-cash compensation.

I could easily see Wal-Mart MoneyPaks/Paypal developing their own "point" systems to circumvent the law.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Even with current sales tax there are many loopholes. Do we tax groceries and other necessities? What constitutes a necessity? How can we reclassify something to avoid being taxed? How do we decide if we can tax someones income? What if the majority of their business is down overseas but they live in the US? What if the majority of their business is done in the U.S but they live overseas? How can we hide/change our "income" so that we don't get taxed. Think of it this way, if a person/company is currently paying 1-2% tax by using loopholes do you think they will just stand around and accept an increase to 9%? I doubt it. They will lobby, fight for a change in law, look for any way possible to save them money. They will move money around or have it go under/unreported so that they can avoid the system. They will lie/cheat/steal to help themselves. This is evident whether you are talking about the economy and taxes or education and testing. Getting ahead for yourself no matter the cost is core characteristic of our society as a whole.




I'd reject complete anarchy until after the first two have occurred and been deemed failures.

@ Aestu - How would a 'point' system circumvent a taxation? Are you thinking along the lines that the tax burden would get picked up by WalMart and not by the consumer? When I first started thinking about buying a new car one of the dealerships said they'd pay all the taxes for the individual. Of course, the taxes on the sale were still paid... so similarly, if WalMart did something similar then the tax would still be paid... right?

If I'm not following, please explain.

@ Maz - You bring up one of the points I take issue with - how do we justify adding a 9% living expense (on groceries) on the poor when they're less likely to absorb that cost. Perhaps they'd fall into the 'Empowerment Zones', which from my wife's reading are special areas designated by the government specifically designed to have an exemption from certain rules of the law. I think it had something to do with moving businesses and people to shittier and poorer areas to help bring more growth and money to those areas.

Business Flat Tax – 9%
* Gross income less all investments, all purchases from other businesses and all dividends paid to shareholders.
* Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for payroll employed in the zone.
Individual Flat Tax – 9%.
* Gross income less charitable deductions.
* Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.
National Sales Tax – 9%.
* This gets the Fair Tax off the sidelines and into the game.

Looks like I was wrong when saying it would eliminate all deductions and exemptions. It definitely tries to eliminate double taxation and promote investment and charity. I don't know all the loopholes that exist but I wonder if the fewer number of deductions and exemptions would significantly reduce them.

I will sell you this car for 100 Wal-Mart Points.

You may obtain Wal-Mart Points from participating firms. Many firms offer Wal-Mart points as "bonus compensation". You may also earn Wal-Mart Points by paying your utility and bank statements on time, or by trading in items at participating consignment firms.

Since it is not a sale, but rather an exchange with points, there is no sales tax.

*****

Our CEO earns only minimum wage. However, he receives a free car, house, three servants, and an acre of land every month, because we love him. His paycheck is taxed at the standard 9% rate, but gifts are no longer taxable because of the flat rate plan.

*****

That is what would happen. The country would revert to a barter economy, or to some sort of corporate feudalism.

I was reading this today. It's easy to see this happening in America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_ ... mic_impact

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Without having done any reading the empowerment zones and charitable deductions sound like they could be exploited easily. Is an empowerment zone a physical area/location? If so I can see all sorts of "gerrymandering" of these zones so that everyone gets what they want/need. I just think people will find ways to cheat the system no matter what, and the people that are already cheating the system (a lot it seems since we are trying to reform it) aren't suddenly going to stop because someone came up with a catchy slogan. Want to buy a new yacht for yourself? Find someway to list it as a business expense or charitable donation. Don't want to pay sales tax on an item? Find some way to negotiate a black market type deal that will save you money and let the seller profit more. Cash only businesses, prepaid cards etc. I feel like these could all be used to circumvent tax law. And if there is a profit to be gained from doing it and the risk of punishment is low enough you can be sure that people will continue to abuse the system. I believe I read somewhere that an individual can expect to be audited approx once every 7 years (if this is completely wrong ignore this). And even if you are audited I'm sure a vast team of attorneys/accountants will be able to help lessen the damage.

not that it'll matter in the long run, because cain won't get the nod. although if he did, obama wouldn't be able to pull the race card, so that would be interesting.

You might be right - Cain could slip in the polls because there is still a long way to go... but the man has been making some big strides towards the nomination. Something I find interesting is how Romney entered the race and took the front position but then late-comers like Bachman and Perry would got a huge surge when they announced their candidacy, but they started slipping behind. Cain, I think, is the only guy to climb from behind and actually put pressure on Romney.

Not saying you're wrong (because I don't know for sure) but climbing to the top to rival the front-runner is pretty impressive.

It is, but cain has less experience in the government than even obama did, so it makes me nervous.

"Special Deduction Zones" sounds like a dangerous step towards corporate feudalism.

Build a big complex in a poor area and employ the entire population to be your personal servants. Tax-free.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Cain has some actual experience outside government in real-world leadership settings...that's not something Obama can really claim. Still, I don't think he'll be voting "present" if he's elected to any office.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I'd really love to hear you explain how running some pizza places would make him more qualified for the presidency than Obama.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

He hardly just "ran some pizza place," and even if that's all he did, it would still be more than our current President had ever done in the private sector:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Cain

After completing his master's degree from Purdue, Cain left the Department of the Navy and began working for The Coca-Cola Company in Atlanta as a computer systems analyst. In 1977, he moved to Minneapolis to join Pillsbury,[15] soon becoming director of business analysis[16] in its restaurant and foods group in 1978.[citation needed]
At age 36, Cain was assigned in the 1980s first to analyze and ultimately to take the reins of Burger King where he managed 400 stores in the Philadelphia area. At the time, Burger King was a Pillsbury subsidiary. Under Cain's leadership, his region went in three years from the least profitable for Burger King to the most profitable. According to a 1987 account in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, Pillsbury's then-president Win Wallin said: "He was an excellent bet. Herman always seemed to have his act together."[17] At Burger King, Cain “established the BEAMER program, which taught our employees, mostly teenagers, how to make our patrons smile” by smiling themselves. It was a success: “Within three months of the program’s initiation, the sales trend was moving steadily higher.”[18]
His successes at Burger King prompted Pillsbury to appoint him President and CEO of another subsidiary, Godfather's Pizza. Cain arrived on April 1, 1986, and told employees that, "I'm Herman Cain and this ain't no April Fool's joke. We are not dead. Our objective is to prove to Pillsbury and everyone else that we will survive."[19] Aiming to cut costs, Cain, over a 14-month period, reduced the company from 911 stores to 420. As a result of his efforts, Godfather's Pizza became profitable[citation needed]. In a leveraged buyout in 1988, Cain, Executive Vice-President and COO Ronald B. Gartlan and a group of investors, bought Godfather's from Pillsbury. Cain continued as CEO until 1996, when he resigned.[citation needed]
Later in 1996 he became CEO of the National Restaurant Association, a trade group and lobby organization for the restaurant industry, where he had previously been chairman concurrently with his role at Godfather's Pizza.[20].
Cain became a member of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City in 1992 and served as its chairman from January 1995 to August 1996, when he resigned to become active in national politics.[21]
Cain was on the board of directors of Aquila, Inc. from 1992 to 2008, and also served as a board member for Nabisco, Whirlpool, Reader's Digest, and AGCO, Inc.[22][23][24]

And while he doesn't have any experience in public office, he does have experience in government via his role at the Federal Reserve.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

So he slashed the amount of restaurants they had by over 50% and the chain became profitable.

If each store had 20 employees, 400 stores go ttyl, that's 8000 people out of work.

Doesn't sound like a leader I want.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming