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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:05 pm  
Kunckleheaded Knob
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HERES TO PRO-LIFE!

(when I feel like it)


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:09 pm  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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Battletard wrote:
Because the examples you used are all bogus.

Spoiler (highlight to view):
Yeah, they're all ridiculous examples. That's the point. It shows you how ridiculous the whole "every case should be treated equally" idea is.


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:34 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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So if the parent consents to have the kid in surgery, the doc fucks up and the kid dies, the doc and parents are murderers?


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:42 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Dvergar wrote:
You're arguing for different punishments based on the act, then turning around and arguing against hate crimes because life should be the same value regardless of the act.


Contradictory - it is your argument that intent and not the act should be the defining quality


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:56 pm  
Blathering Buffoon
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Usdk wrote:
So if the parent consents to have the kid in surgery, the doc fucks up and the kid dies, the doc and parents are murderers?


The two examples aren't anywhere near the same and you know it. Did the doctor do something illegal? Did he make a decision mid-surgery he knew would kill the child?

Stupidity that causes a child's death is criminal, whether it's giving them a toaster to play with in the bath or thinking prayer is going to cure a sucking chest wound. Your argument would condone murdering your daughter because she wasn't a virgin at the time of her marriage. In both cases your actions directly caused the death of a child because your religion told you it was ok, but clearly it's not.

Mns wrote:
Spoiler (highlight to view):
Yeah, they're all ridiculous examples. That's the point. It shows you how ridiculous the whole "every case should be treated equally" idea is.


DING DING DING!


Dvergar /
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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:42 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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You're going even further off topic. When I started this thread it was about attempted vs achieved murder and how to me they deserve the same punishment.

A hate crime is just an addendum to a crime. WHY someone was targeted doesn't matter to me, because each life is equal. I don't know who even brought up hate crimes because they really have no pertinence to this topic but whatever.

I still don't see what my argument has to do with lolsharia law. Do tell.


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:11 pm  
Blathering Buffoon
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Usdk wrote:
You're going even further off topic. When I started this thread it was about attempted vs achieved murder and how to me they deserve the same punishment.

A hate crime is just an addendum to a crime. WHY someone was targeted doesn't matter to me

I don't know who even brought up hate crimes because they really have no pertinence to this topic but whatever.


Battletard brought it up and it is relevant, you're argument that attempted = accomplished speaks to intent.

It also falsely accepts that attempted homicide is applied correctly only to cases in which one party was clearly trying to kill another.

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because each life is equal.


Except that clearly it's not when you're trying to differentiate types of murders and give differing sentences.

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I still don't see what my argument has to do with lolsharia law. Do tell.


The comparison was with lolchristian law and both were cases of choosing to murder your child because you believe fairy tales.


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:17 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I'm not taking into account fuckups in the court system or loopholes in the law. Neither of us are law students so lets just leave that shit out.

I'm not trying to differentiate different types of murders. You are, by bringing up circumstances that would never be classified as murder.

If you're going to try to start legislating religions, you're not going to have much luck. I don't agree with denial of treatment on religious grounds EITHER, but I also don't contest a person's right to make that decision. We get it, you hate religion. It's not relevant to murder vs attempted murder.


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:41 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Fuckups in the law system are definitely relevant because a major sticking point against a distinction so subjective and divorced from material fact is the potential for persecution and abuse.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:05 pm  
Blathering Buffoon
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:12 am
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So many opinions based on incomplete understanding and a desire to see the world as only black and white

Usdk wrote:
I'm not taking into account fuckups in the court system or loopholes in the law. Neither of us are law students so lets just leave that shit out.


Completely relevant. You're talking about what the court should do but, but the court system and loopholes in law are pretty much they entirety of the system you're talking about.

If you want to have a philosophical discussion you can, but just as science is differentiated into applied and theoretical, so too is justice. Attempted murder doesn't happen in a vaccuum.

Quote:
I'm not trying to differentiate different types of murders. You are, by bringing up circumstances that would never be classified as murder.


The very fact that you are arguing that one person killing another may or may not be murder proves that you don't see all life as equal and undermines your case that all punishments should be equal.

Quote:
If you're going to try to start legislating religions, you're not going to have much luck.


Go ahead and stone the next non-virgin woman who gets married in your community and get back to me on how that works for you.

Quote:
I don't agree with denial of treatment on religious grounds EITHER, but I also don't contest a person's right to make that decision. We get it, you hate religion. It's not relevant to murder vs attempted murder.


It's not relevant in your narrow understanding of the issue, but it is absolutely relevant. I understand that you just want to have a straightforward argument where you make blanket statements about clear-cut cases and then apply those globally, but it doesn't work like that. The law must be able to deal with a large variety of situations, your stances don't work when put to real world tests.


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:25 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Dvergar wrote:
So many opinions based on incomplete understanding and a desire to see the world as only black and white


Pedantic jabs like this diminish your credibility. Like I said, this isn't an indoctrination.

Dvergar wrote:
Completely relevant. You're talking about what the court should do but, but the court system and loopholes in law are pretty much they entirety of the system you're talking about.


Not at all. Law operates in concert with the longstanding traditions of common law and human and social mores. There is more to the picture than the here and now.

If this was the world of THX1138 and the judge, jury and executioners were all robots, this might be true. But in this world of ours...judges, jurors, the electorate, the lawyers, the prosecutor...are all human beings...flawed, emotional, and ultimately driven by the mores of our society.

Subjective distinctions are inherently fraught with peril because they will ultimately be driven by individual attitudes and not material facts.

Dvergar wrote:
If you want to have a philosophical discussion you can, but just as science is differentiated into applied and theoretical, so too is justice. Attempted murder doesn't happen in a vaccuum.


All applied justice is based on the premise of the standing theory: our value system, our ideas of what justice is and how it should be carried out. Rule of law is not absolute in the sense the rules of physics are, unless the judge is Solomon or St Peter.

Given the many problems our justice system faces, the pervasive injustice in all forms, the fact that the justice system hasn't "won the war on crime", it's quite a reach to describe it as the product of an absolute science.

When all problems are solved, or at least immediate, objective solutions are on the table for any given predicament, perhaps this statement could be valid. But not today.

Dvergar wrote:
The very fact that you are arguing that one person killing another may or may not be murder proves that you don't see all life as equal and undermines your case that all punishments should be equal.


Contrary to what many people believe, the Sixth of the Ten Commandments does not actually say, "Thou shalt not kill." What it actually says is, "Thou shalt not murder."

There is a difference between killing and murder, and that difference is recognized by every society in the history of the world. There's killing people in war, capital punishment, justifiable homicide, self-defense, sacer, hostis humani generis, etc.

Killing for reasons perceived as just does not contradict the equal value of human life because the laws in question apply equally to all such participants.

You talk about people's "incomplete understanding" but comments like this reveal the profundity of your own.

Dvergar wrote:
Go ahead and stone the next non-virgin woman who gets married in your community and get back to me on how that works for you.


It works for some societies. There are many societies that would find our gender relations laws equally abhorrent.

You talk about black and white but that seems to be a projection: you think our values are final and perfect, but you don't take a step back and analyze the mores of other societies in context.

Dvergar wrote:
The law must be able to deal with a large variety of situations, your stances don't work when put to real world tests.


How do you know that? Haven't we gotten along for thousands of years without hate crime laws? Haven't there been (and still are) many societies that don't recognize degrees of murder? '

How do you know we'll be doomed without such distinctions, or that we are guaranteed a better future with them? What's your factual basis for such an arrogant claim - that if we don't differentiate murder cases to a dramatic extent, we won't get by?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:37 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Quote:
I understand that you just want to have a straightforward argument where you make blanket statements about clear-cut cases and then apply those globally


The only thing i was arguing about to begin with was that attempted murder and murder. In no way did I try to bring anything else into the conversation. That was you and everyone else under the sun.

Quote:
The very fact that you are arguing that one person killing another may or may not be murder proves that you don't see all life as equal and undermines your case that all punishments should be equal.


I understand the difference between a life being TAKEN and a life being LOST, so no that doesn't prove anything.

Quote:
Go ahead and stone the next non-virgin woman who gets married in your community and get back to me on how that works for you.


really? now who's trying to make blanket statements about clear cut cases(a person refusing treatment on religious grounds) and then applying them globally?

Quote:
your stances don't work when put to real world tests.


my ONE STANCE is that attempted murder should be the same penalty as murder. 1) how does that not work, and 2) why shouldn't it be the same penalty, in clear cut no loophole cases?


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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:44 pm  
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French Faggot
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Usdk wrote:
So if the parent consents to have the kid in surgery, the doc fucks up and the kid dies, the doc and parents are murderers?


When doctors fuck up and someone dies, you sue them for malpractice (which is usually covered by their malpractice insurance).

When you fuck up as a parent and willingly let your child die because you intend for them to heal naturally, despite all evidence pointing to their inevitable death without treatment, you're a fucking murderer.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:48 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
When doctors fuck up and someone dies, you sue them for malpractice (which is usually covered by their malpractice insurance).

When you fuck up as a parent and willingly let your child die because you intend for them to heal naturally, despite all evidence pointing to their inevitable death without treatment, you're a fucking murderer.


Manslaughter, because the intent to kill was not there, merely negligent action/inaction resulting in death.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: murder vs attempted murder
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:52 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Oh cool, Ghandi was a murderer.


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