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 Post subject: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:55 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... -portugal/

Quote:
Health experts in Portugal said Friday that Portugal’s decision 10 years ago to decriminalise drug use and treat addicts rather than punishing them is an experiment that has worked.

"There is no doubt that the phenomenon of addiction is in decline in Portugal," said Joao Goulao, President of the Institute of Drugs and Drugs Addiction, a press conference to mark the 10th anniversary of the law.

The number of addicts considered "problematic" — those who repeatedly use "hard" drugs and intravenous users — had fallen by half since the early 1990s, when the figure was estimated at around 100,000 people, Goulao said.

Other factors had also played their part however, Goulao, a medical doctor added.

"This development can not only be attributed to decriminalisation but to a confluence of treatment and risk reduction policies."


Thoughts?

I mean, no one can claim with a straight face that the "war on drugs" is really working (you can still get all kinds of drugs if you want them), and you also can't deny that it's a huge expense to wage such an endless war. If all those resources were diverted to treatment/risk reduction policies, would it help?

I'm not sure massive decriminalization is the answer...but Portugal seems to be supporting that claim.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:54 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Forbes is not a credible source for social issues as their agenda is to cut anything that doesn't immediately benefit the rich, and open up any possible field of economic exploitation. They would have us fight the Opium Wars all over again, a historical fact that contradicts the entirely ignorant and unreal premise of the article: legalization does not, in fact, decrease addiction; quite the contrary.

The article is also a lie because it is built on one statistic that it presents in a mistruthful way:

Quote:
Currently 40,000 people in Portugal are being treated for drug abuse.


Since drug abuse is no longer criminalized, treatment or incarceration are no longer compulsory; there is no legal apparatus to actively pursue drug users. Portugal, like many of the weaker EU countries, has had to make massive public funding cutbacks in recent years. So there is no basis to believe that 40k figure of people in treatment is an accurate representation of the number of addicts and other victims in the country.

Furthermore, there is no basis for arguing that decriminalizing drugs will reduce addiction rates. As with ending Prohibition, the basis for pro-legalization arguments is the social and financial costs of law enforcement. The very fact that the article makes an argument contrary to fact underscores its dishonest and greedy premise.

Finally, Portugal is in no wise comparable to the US or any other first-rate Western nation. Portugal is a small and relatively poor country, and it has changed less in the last 500 years than any other country in Europe. This is why the rest of Europe has been content to largely ignore Portugal through centuries of war and upheaval: many more Portuguese live in a traditional manner than in any other European country. Thus two of the main factors driving drug abuse in America - abundance of liquid currency, and a lack of social institutions - do not apply there, and thus any comparison is inherently faulty.

Begging the question: why would Forbes not look for a more relevant example from a first-rate Western nation? Probably because such an example doesn't exist. The closest relevant case study would be Russia, which has de facto legalization and extremely high levels of chemical abuse. Contrary example would be China which has very low drug abuse (and extremely draconian laws for the reasons described at the beginning of this post).

But the biggest question of all, Azelma...is...why were these fallacies not obvious to you?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:19 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Did you watch the BBC youtube video?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:43 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
Did you watch the BBC youtube video?


The video is totally vacuous. There are no facts cited, merely this one guy "saying so".

He mentions some vague terms like "down" (how much? over how long? says who? is the data consistent?) and statistics for which he doesn't provide a timeframe. How can you get reliable statistics for something that isn't legally actionable, anyway?

The commentator claims there are only a thousand or so addicts in the entire country, yet he's able to find and take footage of several. Hmm. There are probably a few thousand...Communists? Flat-earthers? Polygamists?...in any given country. Not so many you can just go find them.

I've been taking the BBC a lot less seriously lately because it's become increasingly a mouthpiece for corporate propaganda. If you think this is merely an argument of convenience, you can read my recent comments on the site.

Also worth pointing out: in America as most of the Western world, heroin is shot not smoked. This is again a major difference in the situation there versus here: drugs available in America are much more potent, and if drugs were legalized, corps would do with hard drugs what they did with tobacco, which is use science and industry to make them vastly more potent and addictive.

And there's also the ten-second disclaimer at the end. Propped up by the fact that these cops were actually caught on tape doing an arrest; the very fact such a thing is incidental debunks the entire argument.

Again, though, why did you take the video at face value, this guy "saying so", and not note the lack of hard facts?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:47 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Linked article

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... facturing/

lol

No credibility

(spelling it out for you: amongst many fallacies, the most outrageous deliberate deception is that the article puts a statistic about one factory in context with a statistic about all employees working at all plants, nationwide, for a particular firm)


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:50 am  
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French Faggot
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Aestu wrote:
There are probably a few thousand...Communists? Flat-earthers? Polygamists?...in any given country. Not so many you can just go find them.


Vermont, Mississippi, Utah.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:54 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Aestu wrote:
There are probably a few thousand...Communists? Flat-earthers? Polygamists?...in any given country. Not so many you can just go find them.


Vermont, Mississippi, Utah.


Well, yeh, but you get my point. We don't literally have them on the corners of major cities.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:05 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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How much drug related violence does Portugal have?


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:47 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Weena wrote:
How much drug related violence does Portugal have?


If I asked "How much robbery-related violence does America have?", would you accept any answer as a rational basis for legalizing theft?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:46 am  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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Aestu wrote:
legalization does not, in fact, decrease addiction; quite the contrary.

I almost responded to this, then I realized who I was dealing with and quietly backed away.


RETIRED.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:50 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Mns wrote:
Aestu wrote:
legalization does not, in fact, decrease addiction; quite the contrary.

I almost responded to this, then I realized who I was dealing with and quietly backed away.


But does this not count as a response...technically?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:47 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Opium Wars.

/end


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:55 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Oh you mean if you make fewer things illegal, the crime rate goes down?


Weird.

It's almost as if homicide was legal, there would be no homicide convictions.


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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:08 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
Oh you mean if you make fewer things illegal, the crime rate goes down?


So do you have an alarm that goes off ever two seconds so you remember to breathe, or do you have someone to do that for you? I'm fascinated by the answer because I've always wondered how the profoundly brain-damaged are able to stay alive.


Dvergar /
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 Post subject: Re: BRB moving to Portugal
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:18 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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You're right it wasn't commentary on the media sensationalism or anything.


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