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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:01 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
I like how the only three arguments against Ron Paul presented in this thread (and any other) seem to be:

1. He's racist (unsubstantiated by anyone other than some anonymous trolls)
2. He hasn't won a bunch of primaries...meaning he's not popular enough...so I guess that means he is unfit to be President?
3. He thinks it's 1890 (or whatever the charge is).

Sure he probably won't ever be president...but the arguments against him are shaky at best. I need a lot more than "he's racist and thinks it's 1890" to convince me that he still isn't far better than any other Republican candidate.


Those arguments are perfectly adequate.

If:
1. hating the bones of a majority of the country he seeks to govern
2. lacking sufficient political clout to secure a mandate to govern effectively
3. is intent on inappropriate and utterly ruinous policies

isn't enough for you...then you're stupid, irrational, and beyond argument.

Just like that. Seriously, what do you want? Barry Goldwater adverts?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:02 am  
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Obama Zombie
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Dvergar wrote:
Quote:
far better than any other Republican candidate.

If this is the measuring stick

Republican Primaries

Quote:
...you're stupid, irrational, and beyond argument.

Oh geez.
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:04 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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The proof that everything I believe is completely correct is:

1. I am completely unafraid to expose myself to ideas and information that I do not like
2. I consider a wider frame of reference than anyone else
3. My views do not corroborate those of any powerful vested interest
4. My views are at odds with the prevailing wisdom / status quo that clearly isn't working

Eliminate the impossible, and build your ideas from scratch based on disinterested information, and what you believe cannot be anything but truth.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:08 am  
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Obama Zombie
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm
Posts: 3149
Location: NoVA
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Quote:
The proof that everything I believe is completely correct is:

1. I am completely unafraid to expose myself to ideas and information that I do not like
2. I consider a wider frame of reference than anyone else
3. My views do not corroborate those of any powerful vested interest
4. My views are at odds with the prevailing wisdom / status quo that clearly isn't working

Eliminate the impossible, and build your ideas from scratch based on disinterested information, and what you believe cannot be anything but truth.
lol
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:13 am  
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Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:12 am
Posts: 1152
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Quote:
Republican Primaries


The people supporting him now aren't doing so just to switch to another candidate if he were to win the nomination. 'Best turd in a bag of shit' should be different than 'fit to lead the country'.

Aestu wrote:
The proof that everything I believe is completely correct is:

1. I am completely unafraid to expose myself to ideas and information that I do not like
2. I consider a wider frame of reference than anyone else
3. My views do not corroborate those of any powerful vested interest
4. My views are at odds with the prevailing wisdom / status quo that clearly isn't working

Eliminate the impossible, and build your ideas from scratch based on disinterested information, and what you believe cannot be anything but truth.


You opinions on women, police, drugs, authority and human behavior/psychology beg to differ.


Dvergar /
Quisling
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:14 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 am
Posts: 4695
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Aestu wrote:
The proof that everything I believe is completely correct is:

1. I am completely unafraid to expose myself to ideas and information that I do not like
2. I consider a wider frame of reference than anyone else
3. My views do not corroborate those of any powerful vested interest
4. My views are at odds with the prevailing wisdom / status quo that clearly isn't working

Eliminate the impossible, and build your ideas from scratch based on disinterested information, and what you believe cannot be anything but truth.


Well, I'm convinced.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:15 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 8116
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Dvergar wrote:
Aestu wrote:
The proof that everything I believe is completely correct is:

1. I am completely unafraid to expose myself to ideas and information that I do not like
2. I consider a wider frame of reference than anyone else
3. My views do not corroborate those of any powerful vested interest
4. My views are at odds with the prevailing wisdom / status quo that clearly isn't working

Eliminate the impossible, and build your ideas from scratch based on disinterested information, and what you believe cannot be anything but truth.


You opinions on women, police, drugs, authority and human behavior/psychology beg to differ.


Differ with yours? Sure.
Differ with powerful interests? Sure.

Or differ with something else?

Azelma wrote:
Well, I'm convinced.


Well again, Azelma - for at least the second time in this thread, on this page - if that's not sufficient proof to convince you of the worth of an opinion, what would be?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:38 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:18 pm
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I'm right because i don't agree with anyone.

Right?


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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:47 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Pretty much that's how I read it.

"My opinions are not mainstream or the status quo, therefore they are correct"



I shall call it: "The Hipster Defense"


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:00 am  
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Obama Zombie
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm
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Location: NoVA
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I call it, "Da dumbs"
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:18 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
I'm right because i don't agree with anyone.

Right?


If others are provably wrong, that's definitely a basis to argue that one's position is more credible.
Or do you disagree with that, Usd? Do you think a wrong opinion is more likely to be correct merely because it is widely held?

It is not merely that others are provably wrong that I believe what I do, it is also that I am well-informed. Proof of this is that others can maintain their positions only so long as they narrow the scope of their arguments to the particular facts that corroborate them, while disregarding those that do not.

Azelma wrote:
Pretty much that's how I read it.
"My opinions are not mainstream or the status quo, therefore they are correct"
I shall call it: "The Hipster Defense"


So is it your belief that the mainstream / status quo are more likely to be correct?

How do you reconcile this belief with the fact that:
1. the views held by the mainstream in the here and now are 180 degrees off what has been previously believed with at least as much fervor
2. the status quo isn't working

Didn't you cite Anthem as one of your favorite books? If so, you sure managed to miss the point.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:37 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 am
Posts: 4695
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Aestu wrote:
Proof of this is that others can maintain their positions only so long as they narrow the scope of their arguments to the particular facts that corroborate them, while disregarding those that do not.


You do this all the time. You're very good at it. If someone catches you red-handed having a shitty opinion or being a hypocrite you dance around it and attempt to poke holes in unrelated statements.

I'm not sure how you are when actually speaking in a debate...but you've mastered the online form of deflection.




For example, if I bring up the question: "why don't you have a job" or "why are your parents still supporting you?" in the context of an argument where you are railing against people who have jobs and contribute taxes to the government....

You will dance around it, blame others, and refuse to see the fact that you could be responsible for your own failures, in part.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:13 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:18 pm
Posts: 7047
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I don't think the amount of people believing something has anything to do with the accuracy of their belief.

One way or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:23 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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It probably comes from the theory that: since it's true the average person is an idiot...you can extrapolate that most commonly held opinions are simply born out of mass ignorance.

That said, it still holds no weight for me. A dumb person can have a valid opinion, though their reasoning may be flawed, and they may not be able to withstand all the charges of a man such as Aestu. It doesn't mean the opinion itself is invalid.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: *cough*
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:25 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:19 pm
Posts: 8116
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Azelma wrote:
You do this all the time. You're very good at it. If someone catches you red-handed having a shitty opinion or being a hypocrite you dance around it and attempt to poke holes in unrelated statements.


Rebuttals are as subject to being debunked as any initial argument.
Rebutting does not make a bad argument more valid or further criticism unwarranted.

Azelma wrote:
For example, if I bring up the question: "why don't you have a job" or "why are your parents still supporting you?" in the context of an argument where you are railing against people who have jobs and contribute taxes to the government....

You will dance around it, blame others, and refuse to see the fact that you could be responsible for your own failures, in part.


Making an argument, "could", is not the same as what the facts are, "is", and it's characteristic of you that you fail to understand this.

Azelma wrote:
It probably comes from the theory that: since it's true the average person is an idiot...you can extrapolate that most commonly held opinions are simply born out of mass ignorance.

That said, it still holds no weight for me. A dumb person can have a valid opinion, though their reasoning may be flawed, and they may not be able to withstand all the charges of a man such as Aestu. It doesn't mean the opinion itself is invalid.


See sig

Ignorance is only as good as knowledge if you believe that facts and knowledge are arbitrary and meaningless. i.e., nihilism


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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