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I shouldn't have made tax breaks my only argument. There are MANY rights/benefits to being married:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_and ... d_benefits

The existence of these benefits isn't enough to curtail divorce rates though Usdk, which are a result of much different societal issues. That's a flimsy argument "oh well divorce rates are soaring so any benefits to marriage aren't that good anyway."



I don't quite follow how gay adoption is not a valid argument. There have been many, many gay couples who have raised normal, healthy children.

I get that you're arguing a traditional family is a struggle of gender roles...but I don't see how this means gays shouldn't be able to get married. They'll have their own struggles...and their own issues to create a family unit. Society has evolved, and, like your arguments against Ron Paul, it's not the 1800s anymore. We have interracial families, families of different religions, blended families (families with step children, remarriage), and yes we have families with two male or two female leaders of the household. This is objective fact, and it's time the laws reflected the new social norms, instead of clinging to some idealized form of a family unit.



Alas we seem to be arriving at why you feel differently. Do you think homosexuality is a choice? I do not.

From that standpoint, I don't think it's a slippery slope where we legislate everyone's choice...I think it's simple as "if you are born a certain way, you shouldn't be refused rights that others have simply because you are different." Like any Civil Rights struggle, the issue of Gay Marriage is rooted in prejudice.



Why can't both goals be accomplished? And, you're right...I think allowing gay unions would make a happier, more stable, and more just society...absolutely. I fail to see how it wouldn't make that the case. The increase of GDP is an additional benefit.

e-Sword is a great download. Highly recommended.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Nobody acknowledged my civil war reference so here goes:

NC last state to join the Confederacy
NC last to jump on Anti-Gay Marriage Rights bandwagon

There. That was more straight forward, I suppose.

It's a perfectly valid argument. Straights don't want the tainted goods and gays don't either. The few decent apples in the spoiled barrel can be plucked out by other means such as power of attorney.

If marriage has no inherent utility then this is merely a question of, like I said, trying to use the law as a vehicle of self-validation.

The purpose of the law is to protect rights and property.
Proliferation of unnecessary laws is a threat to freedom and justice.



Again, the "reality" of gay marriage isn't a "fact" just because someone says it is. You're talking about "rights" that don't apply because what gays have isn't marriage, for the reasons I described.

Marriage is a human institution that has existed in basically every culture in basically the same form. Extended families, in-laws, remarriage, etc, are not new or strange, race is only an issue because of American racism and not because interracial marriage is new or strange.

Gays having relationships etc is not new either. Nor is it a problem. And neither do gay relationships need a law to somehow become any more real than they ever have been.

If Harmodius and Aristogeiton didn't see the need to legalize gay marriage, why should we?
Why would a law be necessary?



How and why would gay marriage increase the GDP or make a better society?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

If we were North Carolinans, we might have understood and/or been amused.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

No you wouldn't have.

North Carolina at the time of its secession was surrounded by virginia, SC, georgia, etc which had all already seceded.. It wasn't feasible to stay in the union unless they wanted their state burned to the ground, so they threw the dice.

I got the joke, it just wasn't funny because warfare is completely different from gay marriage.

On a related note, does anyone give as few fucks about Obama coming out for gay marriage as I do? I feel like he's just baiting the gay vote (not like he has to try) and he'll just drag his feet if he even does anything at all, just like what he did with DADT.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

What's worse? Being the first state in line for the Union to move through or the first state for the confederates to try and control?

Not every reference has to be funny. No jokes intended, good sir.

Yeah Facebook is blowing up about it.

Pretty funny how easily politicians can pull people's strings for votes.

Dumb arguments about gays are what got George Bush elected the second time. He scared all of the conservative dipshits into thinking gay marriage was going to ruin the country. Instead his economic policies and wars ruined the country. Gay is not a race, religion, or country of origin and deserves no more or less rights than everyone else. This is a federal issue and not a state issue because it effects both state and federal income taxes as well as insurance premiums. Should gays have the right to be married and miserable like the rest of us, maybe, but should we spend billions of dollars voting and fighting about it, NO.

9 level 90s and 10 85s, Damn I need another hobby.

NC would have been surrounded by other confederate states and had NC stayed Union it would have been burned down first by the other confederate states. The union couldn't promise any aid any time soon so NC had to join the confederates as it was the best hope to save their own skin. slavery was a second place consideration at best at that time.

@mayo I don't give a fuck that he comes out pro gay marriage, but I think that if he was going to come out pro gay marriage, he should have done it yesterday, it might have swayed the NC election a different way, or it might not have. Coming out a day late just looks lazy to me.

Good point. I was thinking that the Union would have placed value in NC because of our ports. Would have been smart to move troops down into NC while the other states were still deciding.

Edit: wtf am I doing in this thread

You're right, it would have been. The union didn't expect it to go so badly so quickly though, so they didn't react in time. and what ports? wilmington? was underdeveloped swampland as i recall. the south hardly had any ports of note at the time, which is part of why the north had such a strong advantage when it came to actual maneuvers.

but yeah, thread jack over.

I'm not an Obama fanboy, but he won't gain votes from this. I doubt it will make a significant difference either way. Not like anyone's like 'gay marriage is a major issue for me this election cycle, but I've been on the fence trying to decide between Romney and Obama.'

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

And the entirety of the constitution says nothing about marriage, meaning my point stands. It's reserved to the states, and there is no right to marriage.

Yet some people try to claim that there is a right to marriage, and to deny such right to gays is unconstitutional.

It might not be a good thing, but it isn't there.


You got me.

But what about those states that wanted to ratify it without gunpoint?


You asked me for things states have done that were a good cause. Since California passed more stringent green energy laws than the feds, chances are they would have passed green energy laws even if the fed had done nothing.


3% unemployment, huge immigration and a large budget surplus is what ND has right now. I mean, I dunno, those poor, misguided souls making $18 starting flipping burgers at McDonalds.


I don't know why I answer any of your questions.

"Show me this."
"Ok, here."
"Nope, sorry, that doesn't cut it."

Every time.

In this instance, it doesn't matter what I say, as far as you're concerned, a state government can do nothing right or good.

To your second question, probably because everybody that thinks that way has already moved here after being sick of their current country.