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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:29 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Aestu wrote:
He had no right and no basis to accost someone in public. He walked up to this kid with the intent to confront.

We don't even know if that happened, Aestu.


We know that's what happened because of the audio tapes. Martin is walking about. Zimmerman sees him and decides to confront. Martin is now dead. The details are moot.

You ignored my point that according to the SYG law, Martin had a right to kill Zimmerman. And by the same token, the particulars of Zimmerman's intent are irrelevant. The kid did not have to engage in self-restraint in his response because he was within his rights to respond to someone who engaged him then killed him.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Isn't that what you're supposed to do if you're being followed, threatened or harassed?


According to the SWG law - no. You have a right to stand your ground and pre-emptively defend yourself. Hence my point that the great irony of the law is that it's legal to whip out a gun and cap someone who is walking up to you in a threatening manner, but not punch them in the face.

What you suggest is not what Zimmerman did - and he pulled the trigger. Not Martin.
So why shift the obligation to the guy who was murdered and not the guy who committed murder?

Strange how the whole "legal excuses" and "victim mentality" about people who commit murder then get out of it based on excuses pivots when the shoe is on the other foot and the dead man is black and the murderer white.

You're shifting the focus back to what the dead black guy could or should have done to not have been murdered, but you didn't answer my question.
Are you saying that you have no threshold for a violent response to harassment?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:45 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Aestu wrote:
Are you saying that you have no threshold for a violent response to harassment?

Irrelevant, as you can't prove that there was any harassment. If Trayvon is minding his business and if Zimmerman isn't doing anything other than calling the cops, reporting Trayvon's location so the cops could check it out then I don't see how it's harassment.
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:50 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Irrelevant, as you can't prove that there was any harassment.


Dead horse is dead horse. It says on the phone transcript the kid was "running towards the clubhouse" and Zimmerman decided to follow him. If someone approaches a person minding their own business, without good reason, they are committing harassment. It is that simple.

Kid minding his own business. Rent-a-cop starts shit. Kid is dead. All other facts are moot.

If Zimmerman had not started shit, the kid would be alive today, and if the kid had a gun (and were an adult), he'd have been within his rights to shoot Zimmerman.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:08 pm  
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Last I looked (was a while ago), evidence was suggesting that Zimmerman followed Martin, lost him or simply stopped, headed back to his vehicle, where Martin approached him. Then Martin asked "You got a problem?", Zimmerman responded "No", then Martin said "Well you do now" before striking Zimmerman. Martin was shot while on top of Zimmerman "MMA style".

I was waiting for the results on where the bullet had pierced/exited Mr. Martin. That, plus the gashes to the back of Zimmerman's head and his broken nose... I don't see Mr. Zimmerman going to prison. Especially for 2nd degree (boy did the public shoot itself in the foot with pressuring that).

In any case, this whole case, was blown entirely out of proportion, everybody jumped on a bandwagon before any facts started coming in, the entire thing was a fucking circus.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:18 pm  
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Weena wrote:
Last I looked (was a while ago), evidence was suggesting that Zimmerman followed Martin, lost him or simply stopped, headed back to his vehicle, where Martin approached him. Then Martin asked "You got a problem?", Zimmerman responded "No", then Martin said "Well you do now" before striking Zimmerman. Martin was shot while on top of Zimmerman "MMA style".


Because the guy who shot the kid says so.
The same guy who chose to give him shit in the first place, rather than leave him be.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:35 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Weena wrote:
Last I looked (was a while ago), evidence was suggesting that Zimmerman followed Martin, lost him or simply stopped, headed back to his vehicle, where Martin approached him. Then Martin asked "You got a problem?", Zimmerman responded "No", then Martin said "Well you do now" before striking Zimmerman. Martin was shot while on top of Zimmerman "MMA style".


Because the guy who shot the kid says so.
The same guy who chose to give him shit in the first place, rather than leave him be.

The girlfriend and Zimmerman both said Trayvon approached him first and started the conversation.

Zimmerman says he was attacked first.

Zimmerman and eye-witnesses said Trayvon was on top, beating the shit out of Zimmerman.

Details in the police report corroborate that, too, such as Zimmermans injuries or the damage to Trayvon's knuckles.

BUT HUEHUEHUE YAP FUCK THE BEANER/CRACKER! THE COPS JUST WANT TO SAY "OOPS BLACK KID KILLED O WELP"
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:38 pm  
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"MMA style" was a term used by one of the witnesses.

I don't think simply following someone for a brief period (as opposed to stalking someone) is a crime nor really fall into "giving someone shit."

It's also a moot point if Martin (IIRC Zimmerman was on the phone with the dispatcher saying he lost Martin) went back after losing Zimmerman. Even if someone slugs me at a bar, and an hour later I slug them back in retaliation, I can't claim it was self defense, and if I wasn't defending myself, I was attacking.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:39 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
eye-witnesses


Oh really? The eyewitnesses that didn't intervene in any of this or feel compelled to confront Martin?

Eturnalshift wrote:
Details in the police report corroborate that, too, such as Zimmermans injuries or the damage to Trayvon's knuckles.


So is it that the black guy started shit or is it that he won it?

As I said: the perversity of the SYG law is that it's legal to shoot someone in cold blood, but not punch them in the face. Hence it is practical only if viewed through the prism of racism.

This goes back to my initial question to you. Have you no threshold for violence in response to harassment?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:43 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Weena wrote:
"MMA style" was a term used by one of the witnesses.


...who didn't intervene. And what does MMA-style even mean?

Staged Hollywood action?
Borrowing from six different forms of martial arts?
Black kid flailing wildly?

Weena wrote:
It's also a moot point if Martin (IIRC Zimmerman was on the phone with the dispatcher saying he lost Martin) went back after losing Zimmerman. Even if someone slugs me at a bar, and an hour later I slug them back in retaliation, I can't claim it was self defense, and if I wasn't defending myself, I was attacking.


None of which would give anyone the right to shoot you in "self-defense".
The burden for "justifiable homicide" is "proportionate response".

Weena wrote:
I don't think simply following someone for a brief period (as opposed to stalking someone) is a crime nor really fall into "giving someone shit."

That is the definition of stalking and harassment.
Following someone for no reason or otherwise interfering with their right to go about their business.

What reason does he have to follow this guy? If there is no reason then Martin would have the right to shoot him dead under SYG.

fAfter all, Zimmerman wound up killing Martin, no? Clearly he had reason to fear him.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:56 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Aestu wrote:
Weena wrote:
"MMA style" was a term used by one of the witnesses.


...who didn't intervene. And what does MMA-style even mean?

Staged Hollywood action?
Borrowing from six different forms of martial arts?
Black kid flailing wildly?


Kinda like around the 0:40 mark, but with people...

Quote:
None of which would give anyone the right to shoot you in "self-defense".
The burden for "justifiable homicide" is "proportionate response".

And the day you ripped some guys brain out of his nasal cavity with the tips of your fingers was proportionate to him saying something and you having a bad day because your girlfriend left you or whatever? Yea, ok. If I have a gun and someone attacks me without my provocation, and if they continue to beat the piss out of me and slam my head into the ground... without provocation... then there is a good chance that gun could go off by my doing. People can die from that shit, Aestu.

Aestu wrote:
Weena wrote:
I don't think simply following someone for a brief period (as opposed to stalking someone) is a crime nor really fall into "giving someone shit."

That is the definition of stalking and harassment.
Following someone for no reason or otherwise interfering with their right to go about their business.

What reason does he have to follow this guy? If there is no reason then Martin would have the right to shoot him dead under SYG.

fAfter all, Zimmerman wound up killing Martin, no? Clearly he had reason to fear him.

There is no proof that Zimmerman interfered with Martin, nor is there proof that he intended to interfere. Martin didn't say to his girlfriend, "This cracker tried stopping me"... he just said he was being followed. Not exactly harassment, unless you're trying to make it look like this guy ran down some kid with guns a blazing while screaming, "We's gunna git yew, nigger!"


Last edited by Eturnalshift on Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:57 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Quote:
Quote:
"MMA style" was a term used by one of the witnesses.



...who didn't intervene. And what does MMA-style even mean?

Staged Hollywood action?
Borrowing from six different forms of martial arts?
Black kid flailing wildly?


Most people don't intervene.

Also, MMA-style almost certainly means a full mount. It's the most recognizable position from MMA, and fits the injuries Zimmerman sustained.

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"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:59 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Actually, they're legally compelled to do so. It's called the Good Samaritan law.
Florida has such a law, pretty sure.


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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:04 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
Actually, they're legally compelled to do so. It's called the Good Samaritan law.
Florida has such a law, pretty sure.


Wrong. They are not necessarily legally compelled to do so in all states. Most Good Samaritan law's exist simply to protect people coming to the aid of another, but do not explicitly require that a person intervenes. In fact, while such provisions have been added to some states, a majority of these laws still exist to protect people actually aiding another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

Quote:
In some jurisdictions, unless a caretaker relationship (such as a parent-child or doctor-patient relationship) exists prior to the illness or injury, or the "good Samaritan" is responsible for the existence of the illness or injury, no person is required to give aid of any sort to a victim. Good Samaritan statutes in the states of Minnesota and Vermont do require a person at the scene of an emergency to provide reasonable assistance to a person in need.[8] This assistance may be to call 9-1-1. Violation of the duty-to-assist subdivision is a petty misdemeanor in Minnesota and may warrant a fine of up to $100 in Vermont. At least five other states, including California and Nevada, have seriously considered adding duty-to-assist subdivisions to their good Samaritan statutes.[9] New York's law provides for immunity for those who assist in an emergency.[10] The public policy behind the law is:



Here is Florida's, which doesn't say anything about requiring someone to come to someone else's aid, from what I see:

http://www.cprinstructor.com/FL-GS.htm

Quote:
(1) This act shall be known and cited as the "Good Samaritan Act."

(2)(a) Any person, including those licensed to practice medicine, who gratuitously and in good faith renders emergency care or treatment either in direct response to emergency situations related to and arising out of a public health emergency declared pursuant to s. 381.00315, a state of emergency which has been declared pursuant to s. 252.36 or at the scene of an emergency outside of a hospital, doctor's office, or other place having proper medical equipment, without objection of the injured victim or victims thereof, shall not be held liable for any civil damages as a result of such care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in providing or arranging further medical treatment where the person acts as an ordinary reasonably prudent person would have acted under the same or similar circumstances.

(b)1. Any hospital licensed under chapter 395, any employee of such hospital working in a clinical area within the facility and providing patient care, and any person licensed to practice medicine who in good faith renders medical care or treatment necessitated by a sudden, unexpected situation or occurrence resulting in a serious medical condition demanding immediate medical attention, for which the patient enters the hospital through its emergency room or trauma center, or necessitated by a public health emergency declared pursuant to s. 381.00315 shall not be held liable for any civil damages as a result of such medical care or treatment unless such damages result from providing, or failing to provide, medical care or treatment under circumstances demonstrating a reckless disregard for the consequences so as to affect the life or health of another.

2. The immunity provided by this paragraph does not apply to damages as a result of any act or omission of providing medical care or treatment:

a. Which occurs after the patient is stabilized and is capable of receiving medical treatment as a nonemergency patient, unless surgery is required as a result of the emergency within a reasonable time after the patient is stabilized, in which case the immunity provided by this paragraph applies to any act or omission of providing medical care or treatment which occurs prior to the stabilization of the patient following the surgery; or

b. Unrelated to the original medical emergency.

3. For purposes of this paragraph, "reckless disregard" as it applies to a given health care provider rendering emergency medical services shall be such conduct which a health care provider knew or should have known, at the time such services were rendered, would be likely to result in injury so as to affect the life or health of another, taking into account the following to the extent they may be present;

a. The extent or serious nature of the circumstances prevailing.

b. The lack of time or ability to obtain appropriate consultation.

c. The lack of a prior patient-physician relationship.

d. The inability to obtain an appropriate medical history of the patient.

e. The time constraints imposed by coexisting emergencies.

4. Every emergency care facility granted immunity under this paragraph shall accept and treat all emergency care patients within the operational capacity of such facility without regard to ability to pay, including patients transferred from another emergency care facility or other health care provider pursuant to Pub. L. No. 99-272, s. 9121. The failure of an emergency care facility to comply with this subparagraph constitutes grounds for the department to initiate disciplinary action against the facility pursuant to chapter 395.

(c) Any person who is licensed to practice medicine, while acting as a staff member or with professional clinical privileges at a nonprofit medical facility, other than a hospital licensed under chapter 395, or while performing health screening services, shall not be held liable for any civil damages as a result of care or treatment provided gratuitously in such capacity as a result of any act or failure to act in such capacity in providing or arranging further medical treatment, if such person acts as a reasonably prudent person licensed to practice medicine would have acted under the same or similar circumstances.

(3) Any person, including those licensed to practice veterinary medicine, who gratuitously and in good faith renders emergency care or treatment to an injured animal at the scene of an emergency on or adjacent to a roadway shall not be held liable for any civil damages as a result of such care or treatment or as a result of any act or failure to act in providing or arranging further medical treatment where the person acts as an ordinary reasonably prudent person would have acted under the same or similar circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:05 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Actually, they're legally compelled to do so. It's called the Good Samaritan law.
Florida has such a law, pretty sure.


Most states don't. It's more of a Canadian/European thing. Couple New England states have statutes with actual teeth, but in most places (unless you're an EMT/doctor) you're allowed to watch strangers die without lifting a finger or making a phone call.

Anyway, like I posted before, I'm not here to discuss evidence. That's what the jury's for. To answer Eturnal's earlier question, if Martin had successfully escaped and then came back to initiate, Zimmerman was allowed to defend himself. He did not have a duty to retreat (once this stops being under purview of Stand-Your-Ground) because Florida doesn't require that in self-defense situations. However, he was still limited in his use of force to what would prevent imminent injury. Deadly force requires a reasonable fear of serious injury or death. Whether Zimmerman was facing serious injury or death is for a jury to decide, but a busted nose probably ain't gonna cut it under the reasonable person standard.


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 Post subject: Re: George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:12 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I've proven Aestu wrong twice so far in this thread. Probably makes the lifetime score something like: Azelma 2, Aestu 3672.5

Still, things are finally starting to look up for me. :wink:


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