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I love how you idiots think this is progress. We can't even afford our current obligations as we've been running annual deficits exceeding 1T, so why is spending even more money a good idea to any of you? Even after all the penalties and the two dozen new tax increases (which twelve will affect people making less than $250,000/yr) have been levied, this is still going to have a net cost of $1,250,000,000,000 over the next decade. "Affordable", my ass.

Because healthcare is cheaper and more useful than military welfare, which is the cause of our deficit.
Proof being that other countries that do not have military welfare, but have vastly superior social services, are not drowning in debt.

Again, as someone who owes everything he has to being on welfare, you're really in no position to express outrage at the government giving freebies to people that aren't you.

And in this case, those freebies aren't so free after all, as - unlike your education and the roof over your head at this moment - they are actually paid for by the beneficiaries and not other Americans.

That said, this bill will not make healthcare cheaper nor will it break the logjam that is the status quo. In fact it entrenches it by making the status quo legally compulsory.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

lol

It's progress because the country is at least attempting to move forward, no thanks to your political party. I don't know about you, but I'd rather still be living in the greatest country in the world in 20 years, not some would-be country that was left in the dust (thanks to republican ideals) while the rest of the world looked on and guffawed.

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

ITT absolutely nothing changes and all this did was shelve it until 2014

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I thought europe was the inspiration of obamacare, and I thought they were having serious debt issues too.

and who needs a seriously powerful army when you can always call up the US for backup?

I dont' think anyone here disagrees that there's a lot of bloat in the military budget. There's a lot of bloat in all budgets. But the smart person generally cuts costs before they sign up for some serious expenditures, which is what obamacare is going to be.

Europe's debt is not comparable to ours and Obamacare bears no resemblance to the systems of the EU. And it's not just the EU - basically every Western country has some sort of nationalized healthcare plan.

The US is the only country that thinks the private option is viable and somehow we are the only ones with a system that is generally accepted as being dysfunctional. What conclusion should be drawn from that?



Who needs a powerful army at all?



Spending too much on a necessity, or something useful, is one thing. Wasting half the budget and 10% of every dollar Americans earn to support a bunch of losers, thugs and self-righteous moochers who do nothing good for anyone is another entirely.



Basically this.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Weren't the Bush Tax Cuts unpaid for? As in wholly-unpaid for? As in, no tax increases elsewhere and no spending cuts? Or perhaps he was hoping to use the surplus left behind by Clinton... Anyway, at least Obamacare isn't wholly-unpaid for. I need to look into it more to determine where all of the money is coming from, but I know that tax increases on the wealthy are at least part of the equation, and that's already more than Bush paid for his tax cuts.

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

Bush hasn't been President for a long time. You forward looking and thinking progressives sure like to look backwards a lot.

There are about 22 new taxes. Some of them are on the wealthy. Some of them are on the drug companies. Some of them are on the companies that manufacturer the medical devices. Twelve of them will affect people making less than $250,000/yr (married, jointly). If you don't buy insurance, you're penalized with a new tax. If you do buy insurance (and don't need it), then you're penalized by buying something you don't want to buy or don't think you need. If you have insurance, then you probably won't see a change (other than rising costs). After all the penalties and taxes have been collected, we're still going to be 1.25 trillion dollars short.

PS: Aestu still likes to play make believe. Wat a dum.

3.5 years is a long time? Maybe if your world is made up of five-second soundbites, you think anything over a paragraph is TLDR and that the world began in 1960.

Even if it were 50 years it wouldn't matter. Our big problems, two wars and unsustainably low taxes for the richest, are attributable to Bush. The fact another man is now President does not change that.


22 new taxes! Cool, a statistic! Mark Twain, anyone?

Those 22 "new" taxes do not change the fact that the wealthiest will STILL pay less than ever before.

You say many will affect those earning less than $250k/yr.
Is that, to you, good, or bad?
Would you prefer they be on those who earn more or less, or no taxes at all?


Who exactly doesn't need insurance?

Is there anyone who doesn't ever catch flu or is at risk of an accident or breaking a bone or suffering from food poisoning or any other sort of incidental thing that puts someone in the ER?

And if someone is unlucky and does not have coverage then they go to the ER and get seen anyway, at taxpayer expense. How is that better?


Everyone thinks they're bulletproof until they get shot.

Especially Americans, who see themselves as a nation of veritable Robinson Cruesoes, who think they're invincible until their fragile little lives are shattered by forces outside their control.

Case study, you don't think you need the government that gave you literally everything you have, for free, at no cost nor labor to you. A contradiction with your views that you have yet to explain.


We will be, yes. Those countries that have nationalized healthcare, abundant public spending, little military welfare, and far higher taxes on the rich, will not. What is the logical conclusion?


What am I "making believe"? What have I said that is not factually true?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

We DO like to look back, so as to NOT repeat idiotic mistakes. Stop trying to shift focus when you know my point was that Bush did it (do something expensive without paying for it) and it was okay for you guys, and now that Obama is NOT doing it, you're trying to both make it seem like he is AND go against him for it when just a couple years ago you all were for it (maybe because the President had a big fat R next to his name). And since when is 3.5 years a "long time?" It's not exactly ample time to save the country from a complete fuckerization.

[✔] [item]Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker[/item] (Three)
[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]32837[/item] & [item]32838[/item]
[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
[✔] [item]46017[/item]
[✔] [item]49623[/item] (Two)
[✔] [item]71086[/item]

QFT

Wait, what are we using to justify 'fuckerizing'? The only quantifiable metric I can think of is money, and fiscally speaking...

Bush raised the National Debt by $4.899 trillion during his eight years in office.
Obama raised the National Debt by $4.939 trillion during his three and a half years in office. (This number was pulled from March figures.)

So, on that front, Obama is fuckerizing the country more than twice as fast as Bush did.

Am do right?

Obama inherited two wars he did not start, the unpaid costs thereof, rolling interest on loans to pay for tax cuts, and an economy in terminal decline made even worse by the loss of human capital to the wars.

How is any of that his fault? What do you think Obama should have done?

I mean I'll be honest here. I think that GW was the worst President in American history, and Obama is the third worst (second going to Reagan and fourth going to Harding - fifth going to probably Wilson or Jackson). Obama deserves to be damned for failing to truly lead, failing to advance bold new ideas, and allowing himself to be a pawn of the American military fascists and the corporate state, allowing our country to slide irrevocably into corporate fascism, further empowering and actively supporting feminist hate groups, and descending into an LBJ-like obsession with drone strikes.

So I'm far from a fan of Obama. I would argue that I despise him more than you do because my reasons for doing so are based on knowledge and critical analysis while yours are based on bigotry and ignorance.

But even if Obama took the bull by the horns, and even if he didn't implement all those horrible policies, including this very law, the GOP would oppose any progress, hate him even more for it, and he'd probably lose anyway because Americans won't look at new ideas until they've lost literally everything.

And if countries like Yugoslavia that still blame immigrants for everything that is wrong with their country, still blow their scant tax revenue on their military, and think that Milosevic is a national hero because he "restored their greatness", are any clue, even then, when they've lost everything, just like every other bunch of ignorant third-world losers, Americans, like the Yugoslavs, will STILL think they've got the right idea and those French, Germans and British who plot their future for them, in comfy conference rooms in Brussels, are somehow in the wrong.

I firmly believe that's the cultural future of America. We will turn into Yugoslavia - a bunch of bigoted, disgruntled losers, white trash who stick to old national obsessions, discredited ideas, militarism and bigotry while the rest of the world moves on.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You guys point fingers a lot.

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I guess I have been doing it wrong all these years paying for things that happen to me : {
I think when I was a young un I had some healthy kids Uninsured ance thing or something but it didn't make any difference because in my family we pay for services or we don't go begging for help. My father is a very proud guy and even though we were considered "poor" when I was growing up(and now to I guess) we haven't gone in for every little handout we could get, we are in a funny situation regarding money since my father made out well for the first 10 years of his working life, our house is paid off but we don't have much of an income. He worked for Gulf Oil on there super tankers and got paid well for it(it was something like 1.5-2x the starting salary of your average engineer)but once he had a wife and kids he decided he didn't want to be out to sea all the time and has since been doing plumbing and heating work even though it does not pay very well.

He made the decision that he would rather live within his means(and work close to home) than ask someone else to pay for our stuff. He was willing to not go on vacations, not go to restaurants or the movies, not have new cars(he hasn't bought a new car since he was like 25) so that he could get us good food and good schools.

Now with this insurance thing. He priced out personal insurance a couple years ago since he is getting on in his years and the math of it was that what ever plan he got he would be paying $14,000 in a given year before he got any real money back(he works for himself and he works in construction). Now living in the middle of NH P&H work goes up and down, when people are building a lot of houses he can make 50-60k in a year(in like 2005 we did I think 7-8 houses and got like 65kish) the problem is that in a "bad" year no one is making anything and then you are stuck with just repair work/small stuff and the last few years with stuff so shitty he has been around 28-30k. There is no way in hell he can spend a quarter to half every dollar he makes on insurance and like I said we already cut costs everywhere. If you aren't worrying about what/how much you eat and how much you drive you aren't that poor lol. I drink only water, eat 2 meals a day, take 3min showers(oil is expensive) and spend my nights during the fall and winter setting up fire wood because otherwise we wouldn't be able to heat our house. These are all things I would rather do then beg for someone else to pay for my life.

I know plenty of people who make more money then us in our bad years and are on food stamps and every other program they can find who go on vacations, eat shitty yet expensive foods(soda/store bought snacks/candys), pick up every video game system, buy video games/movies every week and all kinds of other shit that they can't afford.

So yea, paying bills and tax's is a big deal for my family. I know what a dollar is worth and how hard it can be to make and I am in no hurry to force people to spend what they have on something they don't absolutely have to have(as far as the military goes since people have brought it up I don't think we should have boots on the ground in every shit hole country playing global police, but I do think that with the world as it is and how quickly armies can cross oceans that some kind of standing military is needed as a fail safe.) and the whole "if you don't have insurance and go to the hospital someone else has to pay for it" thing is a crock of shit. I have been to the ER to get stitches in my head and guess what? I paid the bill. And on a bigger scale my brother had to have his appendix out when he was like 8, he spent 2 days in the hospital and holy crap my dad found a way to pay for it. Most people these days are just not willing to make sacrifices(or enough of them) they feel its impossible to get by w/o TV and smart phones and beer and that life owes them that week off. Well guess what, it doesn't.

On a more off topic note since I have come completely undone here. People keep talking about not being able to get a job even though they have a 4 year degree in something. Well tough shit, everyone and there mother has a 4 year degree. "The world needs ditch diggers too" society doesn't work w/o people shoveling shit and stocking shelves and if you can't get a job at wallmart then I don't feel sorry for you because you have to be a retard or something. People from other countrys are ecstatic to come here and work 2-3 of those shit jobs to make a life for themselves.

And since I've derailed this thread so much already. The reason everyone can't go and get one job and support themselves and a family is because women are expected to work nowadays. so if you want to buy a house and a new car and go on vacations you better plan on getting married to someone who wants to work or get a really nice job(GL with that) OR not starting a family until your 40. And I am saying that from my brothers experience. It took him a year after graduating to get an entry level job(16-18bucks an hour?) at a business phone company and after supporting himself and his GF/now wife for two years she had to start working so they will be able to save enough for a house to start the life they want(I would have had a house on his salary already but he likes to eat out and all that crap).


TLDR sorta:
Wow then. Sorry for so many topics(even though they are all pretty much related in my mind ENTITLEMENTS YO) and the life story but now I'm off to work my weekend/nighttime job(I have had no interest in "higher learning" which has probably doomed me to a "shitty" life of odd jobs but ill be ok:) feel free to not read it or what ever but I was bored this afternoon.

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