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Only 30% of Americans have a bachelor's degree or higher. I don't think that qualifies as "everyone and there [sic] mother." If anything, it's a bit of an underwhelming statistic when held up to the college graduation rates of Canada, Japan, Russia and Israel.


We have ditch diggers. In fact, we have far too many --- unskilled labor is only as valuable as its management. Increases in the quality and rate of American education would result not in a shortage of unskilled labor, as there would still be a huge surplus of lower-to-middle-class workers willing to do menial tasks for next to nothing, but an infinitely more qualified and capable middle class that would be able to effectively direct its subordinates and participate (knowledgeably, for once!) in the political process. How is that in any way bad?


And so we (as citizens born into a system that gives us a decent opportunity at education and moderate financial success) should aspire to be like uneducated immigrants? That's not a particularly reasoned mindset.

A child has no control over what his parents do or do not do.
What if your father was not so wise?



Those kinds of jobs, as you note, pay astronomically well. You were not poor.

But I can actually relate to your perception of your family as poor when even you know better.

Like you, I had a very frugal family that lived within our means. We didn't drive a fancy new car and dressed and lived simply. My parents were generally unimpressed by new gadgetry, an attitude I've inherited. So even though we were financially extremely well off, we didn't appear rich, and were treated as poor by many of our peers, an attitude that we bitterly resented (and still do).

It's very frustrating. You feel like the world has been turned upside down. I'm sure you can relate.



Funny enough the exact same thing happened to me. I had to get stiches in my head at the age of eight, and my father paid for it too.

Hospitals are legally obligated to provide ER care irrespective of ability to pay. After the fact, if you can pay, you do; if you can't, it's billed to the state.

This is a major reason why the middle class is getting hosed and I can relate here as well. It is frustrating to be part of that middle that is too rich to get any breaks or freebies but too poor to be able to just buy whatever we want, including medical care.



But what sacrifices should be asked of us? To what end?

One can work 10 hours a day at the minimum wage jobs that people are lucky to have - I was recently turned down for such a job, paying $11/hr, at a local storage complex, despite being overqualified, because there were others with more experience because the economy is imploding and people are being forced down the labor chain, crushing those at the bottom (in this case, me).

Lucinth, Mazel and Xeoni are fortunate enough to have such jobs, they work 10 hours a day, and what does that get them? Are they going to be able to buy a house like our parents and grandparents do? Pay for their kid's education out of pocket? And what about vertical advancement - the numbers are strictly against heading up the narrow pyramid even for fully qualified people.

To what end are capable, intelligent people living like paupers and laboring like slaves? Surely not themselves whom the odds are far against ever getting a real foothold in life.

For whom are these sacrifices being made? For ourselves, or for the fat cats who control the infrastructure and find new ways to get rich off our efforts, by gouging us for shelter, for water and energy and communications, without ever putting a penny back into the infrastructure?

What do you think, Chuba?



Give me a fucking break. The world is not wanting for shit shovelers or shelf stockers. Those positions are not going unfilled, as Xeoni himself noted people are pushing to get in the door, and if there were no minimum wage, labor supply pressure would drive wages to a fraction of what they are now.

Yeah, people from other countries are ecstatic to come here. People from shitty run-down third-world countries. People from other first-world countries think Americans are nuts.

Do you really think that our vision for this country, for ourselves, should be, "Well, it's better than living in Mexico"? That we should be elated we're not starving to death?

What is your point here, Chuba? That rather than be unhappy because we're not reaching our potential, we should just adopt the mentality of peasants and be delighted to get up in the morning to toil our lord's fields?

What good do you see coming of that? Are we even helping ourselves by living hand-to-mouth and toiling to maintain an unjust system rather than challenging it?







Higher education is garbage. If I had the last ten years of my life back, I'd have made very different choices.

Unlike most people I have the attention span to read your thoughtful posts, even if I don't completely agree. I enjoy what you have to say.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

In the typical progressive/liberal fashion, blame is being put elsewhere as if the Lord Obamessiah is incapable of doing anything because of those evil and dastardly Republicans cock-blocking all his moves.


From the National Priorities Project, the total cost of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars is 1.34T. If that data is accurate, the 2012 Federal Deficit, 1.32T, is about the same as the cost of a decade of two wars. You can search for their methodology in getting that number. The 1.34T was spread across a decade and doesn't wholy justify the massive deficits we've been experiencing.


The annual interest paid on the national debt during the last decade varies year to year. In the last decade it's been somewhere between $320B and $450B. The problem is Obama doesn't realize this is a problem. Instead, if we were to tighten our straps and actually do something about our debt, then we'd have an additional $300-400B each year to cover social programs and/or whatever else, so long as its covered in a solvent budget. "How is any of that his fault?" The one thing I hated most about Bush was his inability to keep spending under control. Yes, Bush added to our National Debt at record paces, but that record was short-lived and easily outpaced by Obama. As such, Obama is simply adding to the problem you're saying he's not responsible for (the debt) and because of Obama's portion, we're going to have to pay even more interest in the coming years. "What do you think Obama should have done?" Focus on our economy rather than passing health care legislation would've been a good start. For some reason, I feel like people spend money when they have money, and when people spend money, that creates jobs. The problem is people aren't working and Obama did little to address that fact. Instead, we get to buy ObamaCare. Hooray!


Don't kid yourself. The fraction of a fraction of a single percentage point of US citizens that were once able-bodied US military weren't going to be the driving force behind economic recovery. The fact that you even considered that rather than blowing them off as "welfare state human filler" or whatever other insult you could muster, is shocking.


I think there is a real concern about our fiscal situation and I hope people are starting to realize that we can't continue the path we've been walking. You said Obama didn't have enough bold ideas. You know, if those bold ideas were actually going to help us in some way then I'd be less critical of the President and, if they were going to promote job growth, then I'd support him. John Edwards had some ideas that I supported and he's an OMFG DEMOCRAT RLY NOWAI. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, Obama hasn't done anything to really help. I don't not like him because he's black. I don't not like him because of his name. I don't like him because he was able to tell the world, "I'm your guy. I'll shit rainbows, piss unicorns and fuck leprechauns to make the world better." Sadly, the world believed him and now we're all stuck paying for it. That's why I don't like him. He's a well-spoken liar who hasn't ever been good for this job and I hate it knowing I was right all along.

Oh, and the GOP cock-blocking argument is only good for so long. Remember, Obama was able to enjoy a Democrat majority in the House and Senate for two years and, even then, he didn't get much done. (inb4 Mayo links some shit website listing all of Obama's great accomplishments, like nominating some hispanic chick to the Supreme Court.)

Going home now.

Pretty much, yeah. They did the same thing during the Clinton era. Remember Newt shutting down the government on - how many occasions was it? three? Or turning the citadel of government into a circus and wasting time and money because someone had sex with an intern, rather than dealing with festering issues?

Obama didn't screw any interns. But the efforts to stymie government continue. How is that his fault?



The NPP is a political lobby, so what they claim is biased and irrelevant.
The CBO, which is generally non-partisan, cites direct appropriation at $1.4T.

Direct appropriation does NOT include:
-Opportunity cost of war employment
-Attrition of support infrastructure and war materiel
-Inflation due to supply-side economics (i.e., prices for civilian consumption and industry go up when supply is being consumed by a war; also see: how WW2 destroyed the British Empire)
-Interest on said spending
-Black budgeting



What your basis for claiming Obama does not see this as a problem?

"Our straps"? Who is "our", and what "straps" are we tightening?

Does that mean you personally are willing to pay higher taxes, or sustain a decrease in your standard of living? What programs do you think should be cut?

.

You can keep saying "but deficits went up under Obama" all you like. Until you can draw a causal relationship the argument is moot.



How?



And how would you propose people get money?

There are not enough jobs, remember? And without enough people with jobs...with money...then what incentive do corporations have to hire people...to produce products for which there is currently no market...because no one has jobs or money?

What is the incentive, Eturnal?



So you say, people should get money, so they can spend, and businesses can hire.

Obamacare will result in the hiring of doctors and medical personnel, to give people boob and nose jobs-I mean, to provide primary medical care.

Where do you think the money the medical personnel earn is going to go? The Cayman Islands? Obama's savings account? Or buying things they want and need?

Or would you prefer they not be hired at all? If your complaint is that the money comes out of taxpayers' wallets, how is that different than the money coming out of consumers' wallets? It's the same wallet, no?

Or would you prefer economic stasis? No money changing hands - no medical personnel being hired, we all just sit around and wait for...what?

What do you think a preferable alternative to Obamacare would be, and what is your empirical evidence that it would work?



You're contradicting yourself here.

Are they "welfare state human filler" or useful economic material? Either they would be on the street if they were not in the military, or they would have jobs in the economy. Which is it?

Military people, like everyone else on welfare, are wasted human capital. I know full well that the military has some of the smartest and most able-bodied human resources in the country. Which is why it's a tragedy those people are on welfare, rather than being economically productive. But until that happens, yeah, they're filler, just like everyone else on welfare who isn't being used to build this country.



You being someone who gets lied to all the time and makes a point of striving to believe lies that have been thoroughly debunked, I know that you don't like Obama because he is a reminder of the contradictions in your life and the bigotry (not exclusively towards black people) that underscore your world view.

You identify with the GOP ideology because it flatters you to think of yourself as a self-made hero and that everyone and anyone who isn't you is a bad person, who didn't have the guts to serve in the National Guard, who came from parents who weren't as supportive and didn't take it upon themselves to scam the government into paying for their kid's education.

You identify with the GOP ideology because you find it deeply threatening to think that the world might just not be fair and that in a more perfect America, you might not be so high on the totem pole. That's not to say that you deserve to be poor and someone else should live in your house...rather, that you consider it a personal affront, that people who aren't you might be just as deserving of what you have.

You identify with the GOP ideology because you are uneducated, not in the sense you don't have embossed toilet paper on your walls, but in the sense that you have a total ignorance of how the world, this country, other countries, life in general, actually works. And rather than doing the difficult and necessarily traumatic (for anyone and everyone, including me) task of educating yourself and expanding yourself, you identify with an ideology that enshrines your ignorance and tells you that it is a virtue.

That is why you support the GOP.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Dagery captured the essence of my reply to Chuba (and I'm eager to see his interesting response) a lot more succinctly.

Honestly I kind of marvel that I used to think Dagery was retarded. At any rate, he was very, very good at BEING retarded.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I was a proud and uncaring attention whore for my first two or so years on Bleeding Hollow. After quitting, I decided to stop letting that carry over into my forum interactions. But the potential to not be an idiot had always been there.

I always envisioned Dagery as some ADHD Kool-Aid chugging spaz, before I really knew him.

Obamessiah's "massively unprecedented spending" was actually not as high as you think. If you're looking at raw statistics of dollars spent, sure..you can skew those numbers however you want. If he wasn't wading knee deep in George W. Bush's bullshit from the last 8 years, the spending would have looked differently.

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-05-22/commentary/31802270_1_spending-federal-budget-drunken-sailor

If Obama were a CEO who took over as head of a Fortune 500 company after another CEO resigned after all but running it into the ground, you guys would be tripping all over yourselves with praise given the circumstances. It is nothing short of a fucking miracle that the economy is recovering at the rate that it is. Unfortunately for people that understand the problems America faces (ie: Not Republicans) we're pretty fucked anyway because we don't change our core way of life.

It's not effective to wait until shit hits the fan and then go into damage control mode. That may work a few times, but the one time it doesn't work is all it will take to push our economy off a cliff, and the world's economy with it.

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-03-13/commentary/31153675_1_gambling-addicts-amnesia-wall-street-journal

We need to really change the way we look at capitalism. Capitalism isn't necessarily a bad thing, but free market capitalism is a bad thing and if we don't implement the necessary changes in a timely manner, we're all going to suffer for it.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

the last two years of bush's second term the democrats had a majority in the house and the senate.

in that senate was senator obama.

Obama didn't inherit the problem, he's part of it.

The linked article is vacuous and bad and the recovery is a myth.

I still remain unsure whether we're waiting on a cataclysmic Black Monday-type event or we will continue to see more slow decline. Either way, it frustrates me I'm not 20 years younger. There will be a lot more opportunities in a decade or so when the sky finally falls.



A simple majority is not enough to make law.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

well, yeah. have to argue and feel like anything you say will change anything or actually matters, because lolpolitics.

it's okay, i do it with video games.

Dat Mizzyville.

Of course it does.

Opinions are like glaciers. They seem solid enough when you stand on them, but if they didn't move, however slowly, they'd still be where they were thousands of years ago.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

The hospital here in town is talking about hiring the new RN grads (with a Bachelor's, mind) at $11/hr.

yay.

s^ | Kay

Some people are talking about how you should pay for your healthcare when you get in an accident, and that they themselves can do it. Uhh, grats? I don't care about the ones who can (and do), I'm talking about the ones who CAN'T and ALSO don't want health insurance. I'm not saying they're bad people, I'm saying they CANNOT afford it. What, are we going to let them die? Too bad so sad? If this is what you republicans want, then grow a pair, man the fuck up, and admit it. You can't spew bullshit all day long and have nothing to back it up.

What do you suppose would happen? Do we let them suffer? Or, do we mandate health insurance (just like car insurance, there's actually 0 difference) to make sure that they are able to pay healthcare costs? I go with choice B. I should just change my attitude so that I have a liberal's thinking with a conservative's attitude. That way, I can just be like well this is a great idea and I love Obama, but I don't give a shit who is covered and who isn't because I will never have to worry about paying for my health insurance and I will not be affected by this in the least since I just happen to be better off financially than most of the country and I'll take advantage of the millions of loopholes in the tax code to get out of paying more.

I could also be like, who cares about you being a self-made man? I was born lucky, and I'm infinitely better than you because I was able to get a better education while being spoiled out of my mind and if I really wanted to I could have done what you did only better.

ADDENDUM: My real attitude is that my family and I don't see it as people begging for handouts, but rather feel that we should in fact pay a smidge more (literally not affecting us or our lifestyles in the least) so that our less-than-fortunate fellow Americans can worry about their other problems more. Can someone please tell me what's wrong with this? It's a serious question, I genuinely want to know. Thanks in advance.

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[✔] [item]Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros[/item] (Two)
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[✔] [item]Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury[/item]
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The difference is that owning a car is a privilege not a right and a choice not a natural state of being.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.