Post subject: Re: 100 Reasons why Evolution is Stupid.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:05 pm
Querulous Quidnunc Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 am Posts: 4695
One interesting thing about going to a Catholic high school was taking religion classes.
In case you didn't know, Catholics don't have a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. You learn about the context of the stories and how they could have been interpreted by their original writers that way. What do I mean?
Basically you learn how the book of Revelations wasn't so much a prediction of the end of the world, but rather writings meant to reach persecuted Christians in Rome pre-Constantine.
We learned how the "Mana from Heaven" in the old testament could have been naturally occurring food source the Israelites happened upon. You learn how Moses parting the Red Sea was most likely them crossing an extremely shallow marshy area that could have naturally formed. You learn how Adam wasn't a guys name, but literally was supposed to mean "man" etc
The point is, there's a lot of good stuff in the Bible. If you ever sat down and thought about the stuff Jesus actually said...guy was a fucking liberal hippie. Seriously he would have had a picket sign down at Occupy Wall Street.
Really all religions are based in a lot of good. The Koran has a bunch of great stuff in it...it's not full of psycho "blow up these people you get 77 virgins" stuff
The problem is:
1. People are fucking stupid 2. Other people listen to people who are fucking stupid
So you get whole sects of people who interpret everything that's written literally (ignoring the obvious cultural biases etc etc of the writers). Then these people start saying stupid shit and getting others to believe them. Next thing you know, ignorance flourishes and we have religious zealots. The worst thing about it...is others think that these "opinions" are valid. Like "oh we're being unfair if we don't teach kids that some people think evolution is bullshit." Sorry, there's a point when you don't have to be sensitive to opinions that are uninformed and wrong.
It's really quite sad. I'd love to raise my kids religiously. The problem is...they'd have to be a part of a corrupt institution, and most likely end up more fucked because of it. I guess I'll just have to create a new religion called:
"The Church of How not to Be an Ignorant Douchebag and How to Have some Fucking Morals without the Crutch of Eternal Damnation."
Post subject: Re: 100 Reasons why Evolution is Stupid.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:10 pm
Querulous Quidnunc Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 8:41 am Posts: 4695
Aestu wrote:
On the subject of tax evasion:
Various libertarian types evade taxes claiming that they're protesting government waste or policies, or exercising their freedom. In reality they are merely greedy and self-serving (doubly so in the case of Eturnal who owes everything he has to taxpayer money).
Proof that tax evasion is yet another example of the basic greed that is the basis of American libertarianism is that it is not even effective at accomplishing its stated aims. History pretty consistently shows - and into the present day - that however bad things get for the people, however meager their contributions to the state, the state will manage to keep on trucking, by cutting back on civil investment and hoarding for the elite.
Go look at Syria or Iraq or North Korea or the USSR. How much remittance do you think they get from their starving people? There's always *just enough* to keep things going.
Hence the only logical reason to evade taxes is personal greed.
If I had the stones to do it, I wouldn't evade taxes completely. I would simply not pay for things I don't think we need. Basically...you know our defense budget % of overall national budget? That would be the % of taxes I simply wouldn't pay.
That said, I don't have the stones and it wouldn't really accomplish anything. So I pay my self employment taxes in full, and support all programs with my tax dollars...even the inefficiently run, superfluous ones. After much thinking on the matter and discussing with my girlfriend...I've realized that if even the tiniest percent of my tax dollars go to worthwhile causes...then it's worth it because I don't really need the extra money.
That said I still get angry about government wastefulness and inefficiency.
I would say that is the contrast between Catholic and Jewish religious education. Mainstream Jews, generally speaking, do not contend the historical fact of the Exodus, nor do they consider it really important whether it ever happened at all. Most Jews are more focused on asking what the stories mean, what is the point of the stories, what do they mean to us today.
Just like the Trojan War and Aeneas' quest, I believe that the Exodus really did happen, in some form. As with the other two stories, it fits into a definite historical continuum. Somehow, the Hebrews were exposed to Egyptian ideas and meshed those ideas with a set of laws given to them by a great leader; somehow, they were forced out of their ancient land, setting off a long-term cycle of violence between them and another group of people that continues to this day.
I agree with the general attitude of the Jewish culture that the question of literal truth, or historical truth, is second to what the stories are really about. The great epics are not about the gods - they are about men. The Torah/Bible/Iliad/Odyssey/Aeneid are, to me, first and foremost stories of integrity, sacrifice, and perseverance. These great epics are about individual people who bravely did what they believed was right.
The story of the Exodus is not about the Red Sea being parted, it is about Moses' sacrifice in giving up the life of a prince, and then a shepherd, when God called him to free his people. It is about his willingness to overcome his own shyness and constant frustration with the very, very flawed Hebrews, all to die just in sight of his final goal. It is about Joseph's ingenuity and strength of character, the pragmatic tact of Benjamin and Aaron, the courage of Joshua.
The ancients believed that a story was only as good as its telling. Unlike most modern people, I agree with this view. Therefore, I believe that the great epics will never really become obsolete, in spite of modern secular humanism.
As I see it, getting a better lens just means one can better appreciate the panorama.
Back to the evolution debate...go back and watch Inherit the Wind, about the notorious American "monkey trial". Watch the closing arguments. The Creationist argument is actually an environmentalist argument, and the Atheist argument is actually an anti-environmentalist argument.
So how did the poles become inverted?
As I've often said: I've become firmly convinced that the conservatives are responsible for the moral decline of America, not because moral conservatism is itself wrong, but because they discredited themselves by submitting to greed, bigotry and ignorance, and championing a lot of thoroughly bad causes such as Jim Crow, McCarthyism, biblical literalism, jimboism, and capitalism. Evil notions that have always been America's inborn seeds of destruction.
Both liberalism and conservatism today are...shills. A bunch of red herrings about what is right. Both have grown out of the absence of a clear moral system: nothing new has come to replace the doomed old system.
Hence my deep conviction that civilization as we know it will only get back on its feet and ensure its long-term viability when it synthesizes a new system of moral law that embodies both traditional religion and morality and modern environmental, socialist and humanist ideas. Such a system would transcend and not necessarily be exclusive with existing religions, which would probably adapt to the influence and emerge stronger than before.
However, I believe this is highly unlikely, and it is more likely we are heading into a prolonged dark age of corporate feudalism.
Post subject: Re: 100 Reasons why Evolution is Stupid.
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:07 pm
French Faggot Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:15 pm Posts: 5227 Location: New Jersey
Aestu wrote:
However, I believe this is highly unlikely, and it is more likely we are heading into a prolonged dark age of corporate feudalism.
This mostly depends on how relevant the United States continues to be, and whether we change our own situation relative to the rest of the world.
And that "atheist" poster reminds me a lot of a World War (can't remember if 1 or 2) era propaganda poster. The "destroy this mad brute" of a Hunnish monkey one.
I'm confused. Were you equating naturalistic pantheism with atheism or implying that it reflects a belief in intelligent design and creationism?
Neither. I was demonstrating that its tenets have been adopted by turns favorably and unfavorably by both the former and the latter, and that this inconsistency is due to moral decline.
Naturalistic pantheism is obsolete because it runs contrary to humanism, rationalism and progressivism, but its most worthwhile tenets could and should be adopted in a new moral system.
Not to sound like an ass, but the bible really IS more like guidelines.
Tell that to people that literally believe Jesus came to Earth riding on a spaceraptor wielding lasers that all went extinct for our sins 2000 years ago.
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