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japan has more suicides than pretty much anywhere but seattle.

EU has soccer riots for, the rest of the worlds opinion, no reason at all.

Human beings are violent, there's no way to stop it.

VT isn't a high school, it's a college.

If Colorado's gun control is so pervasive, why was

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/20/us/colorado-theater-shooting/index.html

Face it, there's no way to stop a gunman who plans and plans and plans and prepares for a situation like this. It's not in the general human beings mind to expect something like this. Gun control? Maybe. Too easy to get guns illegally though. I mean the war on drugs and the war on terror are going so well, why not make a war on guns too? It's not feasible to stop guns in this contry. Why are you deluding yourselves into thinking it is?

Japanese people commit suicide through seppuku, as they always have.
EU soccer riots don't turn into massacres.

So back to my question. Why aren't people in the EU or Japan getting massacred without guns? Do you have an answer or don't you?



That's a weak answer. What you really mean is that you're too cowardly to consider alternatives to your thinking. The fact is that some societies are far, far less violent than ours, so clearly they're doing something to solve the problem.



What difference does that make? A college is a crowded place full of young and volatile people, does that sound like a great place to be waving guns around?



I said they were permissive not pervasive. You're debunking your own claim that the massacre took place in a "gun-free zone".



You're right, it's not. So how will giving everyone a gun fix anything?



The only delusional person here is you. Countries that don't see guns as the answer to social problems don't have gun violence. That's a fact, and it's a fact you keep trying to escape from with paranoid delusions about bogeymen and Wild West badassery.

It is the hard counter to your entire argument, and unless you can overcome it, your views are just plain wrong.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Two Glocks are $400 - each
Remington 870 shotgun - about $300
Smith & Wesson AR-15 - about $1000
6000 rounds of ammo
Full set of SWAT body armor

Not to mention he had his apartment rigged to shit with explosives, tripwires, liquid mixtures, etc.

He's a medical student who apparently was unable to find a job. Where is he getting this money from? The only money that has been alluded to is a research grant from the NIH, but otherwise, where the fuck did this kid get all this?

s^ | Kay

Another thread where the one guy that rarely leaves his apartment expalins "reality" to the rest of us?" Can't get enough of those.

Would gun control stop things like this? Not likely, since this guy bought several guns in the months leading up to this event without setting off any warning alarms. It's also doubtful because even in places with strict gun control this can happen. You could "well in Europe" all day long if the Scandinavians weren't trying someone for an identical crime. This could still happen without guns, as it did in Japan with Sarin Gas attacks.

These events do appear to happen in those areas where guns are off limits, like schools. It's not unreasonable to assume, especially in the case of this allegedly bright individual, that going somewhere the majority of your victims will be unable to effectively fight back is better than, for example, attacking a police precinct. From what I've read, it is illegal to bring your gun (licensed conceal carry or not) into any place that charges admission, like movie theaters & amusement parks.

Would armed and trained citizens have made a difference. It's possible. I've been tear gassed (twice), and it's not impossible to function, it's just very hard. Being shot at would certainly be a motivator. It might not have made a difference, and I doubt it would have deterred this guy. Most people aren't trained to deal with assailants wearing body armor. Regardless, it would not have made things any worse. Those of you arguing it would have added to the death, damage & chaos are focused on the 'armed' part to the exclusion of the 'trained' part. You don't shoot unless you can clearly identify your target and the path your shot will take is clear.

This guy is/was not some special snowflake looking to save the world. He's a nutter. Anyone bright enough to identify the root causes of the decline of our society is also bright enough to know this isn't how you fix it. Doing this is admitting that tackling the problem is too hard. He was throwing in the towel. His martyr fantasy, which it sounds like Aestu is embracing, doesn't fix anything. It only serves to empower exactly the sort of thinking/forces that are dragging society down.

If you want to have sympathy for this guy, fine. God knows how he'll feel if he has a moment of sanity and realizes what he's done. There is no heavier sin to carry the burden of than having done something you can't undo. If you're going to suggest he deserves more sympathy than a bunch of people only guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, however, you can eat a bag of dicks.

Your Pal
Jubber

Sent from my Mobile Pimp Device using Tapatalk 2, because that's what all the cool kids are doing.

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Jubber, with all due respect Aestu makes a valid point worth giving thought to. See also my Facebook post from last night.

I don't think it's necessary to give more sympathy to the killer than the victims, but it's absolutely necessary to address serious issues before they arise and to acknowledge the difference between sympathy and empathy, and the difference between understanding and justifying.

This issue extends so much farther beyond simply gun control.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

This doesn't invalidate anything I said.



That's because he had no criminal history and everything he bought was perfectly legal.



Yes. The only such crime in pretty much the entire history of the continent. This is a case of turning the exception into the rule.



The sarin gas attacks were way back in 1995, and they were perpetrated by a cult, not one individual. Again, you're turning the very few, very awkwardly fitting exceptions into the rule.



This simply isn't true, for the reasons we've already examined. It happens very very rarely in the EU or Japan. The lack of effective deterrent argument just isn't valid. You can repeat it all you want. It's still an invalid argument.



If you're special ops or some other highly trained and conditioned professional, maybe, and even they make mistakes. Just because a citizen is not a killer doesn't mean he's going to exercise sound judgement at all places and times with a firearm. Six hours (if that) of gun training courses is not going to make a difference in that respect.



I never said he was a martyr or trying to fix the world. Again, my goal is to explain, not justify.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Maybe not, but it does provide context.



So we have laws in place, but they don't work, so we enact more laws which eventually don't work. Where do we end it? When everyone has their own government assigned attendant to monitor them 24/7? "Gun control" is a fantasy. If a criminal wants a gun, they'll find a way to get one or come up with another way to do what they want.



I'm not the one suggesting that severe gun restrictions will stop what are, even in the US, isolated and infrequent incidents. Even in those places you were touting as exemplary, these things happen.



None of the "reasons you've examined" come remotely close to invalidating the premise. Nor do they explain why these events invaraibly occur in places law abiding citizens don't carry. You can say it's not a valid argument until you're blue in the face, but screaming that the sky is brown until you're hoarse doesn't make it any less blue.



This just boils down to "you could never possibly be trained enough." I'd disagree, and unlike you I've actually seen & held (and used) a gun. I've known not only the "special forces" guys who 'still make mistakes,' but also the average gun owner. They both take their guns and use thereof very seriously. Mistakes will be made? Maybe, but not on the level any of you were suggesting.



If I weren't on my phone, there would be a quote train here unfortunately,

Sent from my Starfleet Communicator using Tapatalk 2, because I'm out of my Vulcan mind.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

You can't enforce laws that don't exist. What he did was legal.


Much more rarely (as in just this side of never). Their approach works. Your point is moot.



Average gun owner? Average based on what criteria?

Can you ever be trained enough to wield a gun safely in a civilian environment? The very existence of special forces, as compared to regulars, or the (lol) National Guard, that "still make mistakes", is proof positive that the answer is no. Let alone some marginally trained civilian.

The funny thing is that the very reason we have those armed forces you like to speak so highly of is because we tried the alternative - semi-trained civilian militia - way back when weapons were less dangerous than they are now and it didn't work because civvies with guns don't have the discipline or training of combat professionals and can't function under fire.

Anyone who sees guns as a means to ensure personal security and threat management in a civilian environment is inherently unbalanced and unlikely to exercise good judgement. The very fact of carrying a gun is a catalyst for violence because it makes the option available.

And if guns proliferate - as I said several posts back - it would trigger a general raising of the stakes by all parties. If the odds of any given person carrying a weapon went up substantially, then cops and criminals alike would not even give victims the chance to draw.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Since most of us have come to realize that reading isn't your strong suit, I'll try to spell this out for you a little more. We've added restrictions to the ability to own and purchase guns to stop crimes involving guns. They haven't worked, even in those places you've concinced yourself don't have these problems despite evidence to the contrary. They have probably reduced instances of these events by invalidating purchases/ownership for high-risk candidates. Once you move beyond the high-risk minimizing you enter a place where draconian steps have to be taken. Every event is just a justification for more extreme steps. It becomes a never-ending vicious cycle.



Tell that to the Norwegians.



I guess not. Time to disband the police force.

Your Pal,
Jubber

Sent from my penis using Tapatalk 2

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

This made me lol. This assertion is like arguing that people will absolutely "walk, not run" to the nearest exit during an emergency. How many times have we heard that? It's about as close to "training" as you're gonna get. But lord knows, if someone is shooting the shit out of the theater next to me, I'm making a beeline for that exit. No, "training" isn't going to be enough. You arm people and there will be MORE deaths. This isn't a movie, guys, this is life. You aren't gun-toting bad asses, and you're not going to stop "the gubmint" from taking over with your pistols.

Stop. Fucking. Dreaming.

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Aw, you mean I don't get 5 seconds to say something witty to my date before we run away?

Switzerland


edit: waiting to see the spin on this one

Druid: Meowth
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What you wrote is not a valid response. Saying that some laws don't work has no bearing on the fact that there were no laws against what he did.



Are the Norwegians going to turn to guns for self-defense? Is it going to happen again as frequently as it does in the US? Do they think their approach is seriously flawed? No? Then what am I to tell them?



Cops are highly trained personnel, and if nothing else they spend 10+ hours a day doing their thing. Most of their "training" consists of establishing what they can and cannot do, legally or otherwise.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

The Swiss don't use their guns for personal defense, and Swiss society is the total antithesis of American society in every way. Your point is stupid, ignorant and invalid. Next!

It's not a spin, it's reality. The only spin is in the propaganda you choose to internalize because you're too lazy to educate yourself. Proof being that anyone who does, rather than getting their views from that propaganda, thinks your viewpoint is ignorant and crazy.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

So, in Switzerland, having a gun in most homes isn't meant for personal defense, just something you have because you want? And this is the propaganda I've fell into?

Neat.

Druid: Meowth
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