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Yes. Exactly. The Swiss don't own guns for personal defense. You have only heard that because of propaganda.
The Swiss own guns for defense against foreign invasion.

This works for them because:
1) Switzerland is a totally homogenous country with strong communities and strong social values
2) Switzerland is situated on some of the roughest terrain in the world
3) Switzerland has spent the last 2500 years working very hard to stay out of European conflicts
4) The last time anyone tried to invade Switzerland was about 600 years ago, and the last leader to succeed in doing so was Caesar
5) If the Swiss were invaded by a modern, well-equipped foe, they'd probably get crushed utterly (after inflicting disproportionate losses), just like the Finns 60 years ago. That won't happen, because they've gone out of their way to avoid making enemies - or friends that would drag them into a war.

Swiss society is very cohesive. They take care of their own, and they're a very conservative, very stability-minded people in a way completely contrary to all things American. Destabilizing influences like class/race tension, free-market competition, libertarianism, and mass media have no place in Swiss society. Therefore, people tend not to be driven to commit crimes or kill people.

But we all know that all this aside, you'll continue believing what you're been brainwashed into believing rather than what is provably true because you're just that smart. Right?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Sounds like defense if you ask me. Thanks for the support.

Druid: Meowth
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Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You really aren't seriously trying to compare the United States to Switzerland?

They are two entirely different countries.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

Then you're willfully ignorant. It's that simple.

An aggrieved citizen is not a foreign invader. The Swiss don't see that sort of thing as violence to be suppressed through force, like an invading army, they see it as a social problem. Since they do not see a social problem as being in any respect similar to a foreign invader then your argument is invalid.



No, France and the US are entirely different countries. In the case of Switzerland and the US, "entirely" isn't strong enough to describe the totality of the difference.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Owning a gun for personal defense, then using it in a defensive manner, means it isn't defense because the person you are defending yourself against isn't of the same type.

It's okay if you can't weasel your way out, I won't tell.

Druid: Meowth
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Correct. Nor are you defending yourself the same manner. Nor are you even defending yourself at all.

The purpose of the gun is not to defend your house against the invader, it's to join the citizen-army on the field of battle in the event of national emergency. This works for them much better than it worked for us 200 years ago, for the reasons I've described.



You are projecting. My argument is internally consistent, and it's the same argument I've been making all along, backing it up with facts. You are trying to "weasel your way out" of an untenable position when you are totally outgunned by resorting to fallacy.

The whole gun argument is nothing but a lot of "say-so" claiming things could or should happen that have never worked that way in real life when these ideas have been put to the test. Typical libertarian "the ideology of ignorance" stuff.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

If it looks like personal defense, acts like personal defense, and sounds like personal defense, it's probably personal defense.

Druid: Meowth
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A battle in the field against an invading army doesn't look, act, or sound like a street fight against a crazy person.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Nobody else really is wondering where this unemployed kid got thousands of dollars for guns/ammo/SWAT gear/explosives/booby traps/etc?

s^ | Kay

Credit card. What's the mystery?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

But both can be personal defense. No need to deny such obvious truth.

Druid: Meowth
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It's not truth at all.

Crazy person is crazy. Armies are made up of people as sane as anyone else.
Killing a man on the battlefield is legal. Killing random people is not.
Use of force in personal defense is a matter of discretion. Use of force on the battlefield obeys the chain of command.
Countries go to war because of political disagreements. Crazy people kill because of social problems.
Battles are fought for communities. Self-defense is all about you.

Most significantly, fighting on the battlefield isn't personal defense because the goal is not to stay alive, the goal is to complete the mission.

Cops carry and use guns because, at least in principle, they've decided to put themselves at risk in the service of their mission. Going back to what I said: proliferation of guns would just increase the body count.

I might as well be explaining to you why self-defense doesn't apply to cows.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

A man with a plan isn't crazy when it works.


Cows aren't people, of course it doesn't.

Druid: Meowth
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Glorious Death Metal Music

There were plenty of laws against what he did. He broke them all. Which is, as usual when trying to talk to you, not the point. The point is that we have a reasonable arrangement. We have a system that still recognizes the rights of the majority while curtailing the rights of those who are most likely to commit a crime using a gun. Anything more than that is an excess. What do we do if we take all the guns away and this shit still keeps happening? Only then we'd be dealing with black market weapons and homemade explosives and chemical weapons. It's not enough to take all the weapons, now we have to ban household cleaners? Hey, maybe we should just have everyone monitored around the clock! Yeah, that will stop it, and if you start crying about privacy it's only because you don't care about children being killed.



Again, that is not the point, and I think you damn well know it, and you're playing stupid but it still doesn't change the fact that despite Norway having many of the rules you seem to be suggesting would fix this problem in place, they still had one of these incidents, and it was fucking huge. I don't care what the Norwegians do, except that in this case what they did didn't prevent the very thing you're saying we could prevent by doing things like Norway.



Oh-Ho, but this is a change of tune! I don't think I need to remind anyone what your opinion of the police generally is, and "highly trained" doesn't enter into the description. Given everything you've ever said about a cop on these forums I don't think I need to make an argument to counter your own when you already do so on a regular basis.

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