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We don't recognize that right. And we don't want it for ourselves, either.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

What right are you guys on about

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The great thing about something being a right is that it doesn't matter whether you recognize it or not, Ethan. So you can't exactly take your football and go home with it on that one.

I was referring to the theater shooting thread, Fant.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Another funny thing about rights, is you can exercise your right to NOT own a firearm as well.

You don't pay a penalty for not purchasing a firearm.

Uh, yeah it does.

I can say I have the right to walk around naked. I don't see myself getting very far with that right without others recognizing it.



"Libertarianism is a philosophy of ignorance."

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

By that "logic," it shouldn't matter if I no longer recognize your right to continue to waste my air, and I come over to revoke your breathing privileges. Overt simplification to the point of abject stupidity just to avoid the fact that you're wrong is so unbecoming of you.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

You started the whole 'being wrong' thing by comparing the assessment of a punishment with the desire of parts of society to change the law.

Really now? I get that's what you people like to do, go on shit tangents and draw nonsensical parrallels, but Christ son this was a particularly shit one.

Back to pedos now please?

You can say it's a shit parallel if you want, but here's how I see it:

The complaint here is that guilt-by-association thinking is wrong when its being used to bring the hurt down on an entire institution for the failings of a few, especially when the people paying for the mistake aren't going to be the people that made it.

The idea over in the other thread is that guilt-by-association thinking is perfectly OK because people who get and/or have guns obviously can't be trusted because one guy with some guns went batshit crazy and killed a bunch of people, but somehow that's OK even though they're not the person who did it.

The problem I have when talking to "smart" people like Aestu is that they miss those obvious parallels. "The gun" somehow makes this all different, never mind that it's an inanimate object that is incapable of doing anything on its own. They're the sort of people who don't understand that we shouldn't do something just because we can do something. They give no thought to the unintended consequences of their grand schemes. They're the sort of people that come up with ideas like "zero tolerance" and "speech codes." That sort of idiocy is the problem. In many parts of society, especially college campuses, we've replaced actual thinking and judicious leadership with codes, judgment with zero tolerance, and standards of right and wrong with non-judgmental free-for-all. Those ideas, those codes and policies and other idiocy, were never so much an effort to codify and make clear what acceptable standards were so much as they were a way for people in positions of power to duck responsibility and accountability, as evidenced by the "my hands are tied" attitude so many of these so-called "leaders" take when its obvious those codes/standards were/are inadequate or just plain wrong in a given situation or in general.

The only thing that's going to come out of this Penn State thing, aside from a huge chunk of money from the school's ass, is more "sensitivity" and stupid codes as school administrators look for ways to insulate themselves from legal and financial liability...at Penn State, and across the country.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

For someone who loves to rag on Aestu for commenting about things despite being sheltered, inexperienced and isolationist, you sure know a lot about college campuses despite never having attended one.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Correct.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

People are just hypocritical when it comes to wanting governments/institutions etc. to get involved with things.

Conservatives: "GET YER DAYUMN HANDS OFF MY GUNS G'UBMENT!"

then they go: "BUT YALL NEED TO MAKE IT SO DEM FAGS CANT MARRY"


Then liberals are all like: "Government stay out of abortions! Government abolish the death penalty!"

"BUT FFS get involved and start taxing rich people more. Also please get involved with people's health, and with the private sector too! But don't get involved with wiretapping etc."

Then everyone is all like "FUCK YOU PSU! DIE DIE DIE!!!! FINE THEMMMMMM!"

..."but sir, you realize PSU is a public institution, their fines will most likely be paid in the form of tuition increases and with taxpayer dollars...so by fining them, you're really just punishing taxpayers who had nothing to do with the negligence of 4 individuals...not to mention all the civil lawsuit settlements that they'll be on the hook for"

"FINE THEMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111oneone"



Everyone has their idea of who should or should not get involved. I think Aestu is right, libertarianism is a philosophy of ignorance. So is every other political philosophy...because really....

I say fuck it. Institutions will intervene based solely on what the rabble wants...what they think will be popular. That's it. We just have to surrender to it.

one team, one fight.

No, libertarianism is a philosophy of ignorance, because what it's all about is refusing to acknowledge the facts of history and human nature. Libertarianism is the philosophy of someone who puts a pot over their head, whacking it with a spoon, so they don't have to see or hear reality. Rather than ask questions or analyze knowledge, libertarianism simply strikes all that through and says, "It will all work itself out because life is fair and human nature is perfect."

Real philosophies ask questions like: Why is life unfair? How can we make it more fair? What can governments do for their people? How can we meet with better historical outcomes than other civilizations? How should the burden of taxation be borne? How should we conduct ourselves towards other nations, and how will those policies be deferred? How should we move our society forward?

Libertarianism just says, "No" to all. And all that "No" really means is, "I want everything for free right now."

Libertarians talk about freedom but all this ever really seems to mean is keeping a few extra tax dollars to blow on Chinese imports. They talk about the free market but all that really seems to mean is justifying their delusions of grandeur, that they are better off than others because they are more deserving and that in the future they will inevitably have more than they do.

Libertarianism is free beer - not free speech.

There's no contradiction between liberals saying they want government to do A, B and C while respecting their citizens' rights and freedoms. Liberals understand what libertarians refuse to, which is that freedom isn't free, life isn't fair, and no man is an island. Liberals have a constructive vision for government based on some knowledge of what the world is actually like.

So, no, liberalism is not a philosophy of ignorance. Neither is traditional conservatism, which has no place in American politics as we know it. Within the spectrum of informed opinions there can be quite a bit of variation, but libertarianism is in the same category as biblical literalism and scientology.

And it's no coincidence at all that libertarians are, without exception, American, and completely uneducated, and get their ideas from American mass media and Google.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Should we make life more fair? Is that our responsibility? If so, why?

Is it possible to make life completely, or even "mostly" fair? Define fair. What would make you say "yep, this is fair for all"?


You say libertarians want free stuff? That's interesting...because libertarians argue that the idea of taxing people and then spending it for others who didn't earn it is giving others free stuff.

What causes you to say that they want free stuff? What is it they want for free, exactly?



Do you believe the government, in it's current form, can legislate away our country's current problems? If so, why?

If not, do you think the changes needed in order for government to make such legislative changes can ever really happen? What makes you believe that?

These sorts of questions are why libertarianism is a philosophy of ignorance.

Anyone with any knowledge of the world at large - places and times in the past or the here and now outside of America - understands just how real those distinctions are. The only way that anyone could think that those distinctions are null is if they are mired in a totality of ignorance.

Libertarianism is just another kind of entitlement. People who think they are where they are because they're awesome and not because an entire society worked hard to establish the conditions for their success by actioning the kinds of questions you asked.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.