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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:34 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
How many of the anti-gun advocates here have fired a gun?


How many of the pro-gun advocates here have read a book?

How is your question relevant, anyway? If I go to a shooting range and play with a handgun for a couple hours, would that make my views more valid? Or no?

Grimmgor wrote:
i grew up in a shitty area. i've heard shots more then i should have, i've known people who die. i own it for safety. it doesn't matter what anyone tells you, you don't want to believe it. i would beg for a mod to nuke this thread to end the endless cock waving but it will just happen again. i can't wait to hear that that's not why i own it, i'm lying to myself, i don't actually know the thoughts that go through my head, etc.


It's a valid reason for you to own a gun. It's not a valid reason for owning a gun to be legal.
And it's not the situation of most gun advocates.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:06 am  
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Firing a gun gives perspective. It's like a virgin being pro life OR pro choice.

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It's a valid reason for you to own a gun. It's not a valid reason for owning a gun to be legal.


You have the right to protect yourself, it just shouldn't be legal?


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:10 am  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Usdk wrote:
How many of the anti-gun advocates here have fired a gun?


Yo.


Sup. Even killed shit with it. Doesn't do anything for me.. I suppose I simply derive more enjoyment from more practical things.

@grim, I know why you own it, but it doesn't make you any safer. It only makes you feel safer, to which I have no argument. But there's better ways to be safe, most of which don't involve making me more unsafe.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:15 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
Firing a gun gives perspective. It's like a virgin being pro life OR pro choice.


How does sticking your dick in a woman give perspective on abortion? Or firing a gun gives perspective on gun control?

The very fact you think that sticking your dick in a woman or emptying a clip into a target is comparable to actually getting someone preggo or being in a life-and-death situation demonstrates just how wildly out of touch with reality you are. You are living in the world of Walter Mitty.

And fwiw even those experiences generally don't change people's outlook on life. I'm sure everyone on these boards know people who have gotten knocked up or fought in the wars and still tenaciously cling to their stupid ideas, refusing to get an abortion or insisting that guns are kool. The dialogue and attitudes at work are way out of the domain of the rational.

Usdk wrote:
You have the right to protect yourself, it just shouldn't be legal?


You're in a crowded highrise on fire.

Is it safer/better to calmly exit the building, or to push and shove your way out?
What if everyone else is pushing and shoving?
What if everyone else isn't?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:48 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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oh christ your reading comp really is shit.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:11 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Aestu wrote:
You're in a crowded highrise on fire.

Is it safer/better to calmly exit the building, or to push and shove your way out?
What if everyone else is pushing and shoving?
What if everyone else isn't?

You're forever alone in your bed, ready to close your eyes for the night when a large man of unknown color, religion, ethnic or socioeconomic background kicks in your apartment door.

You don't know if he's armed. You don't know what he wants.

Is it better to cower in a corner and call the cops, hoping this guy doesn't find you pissing yourself?
Is it better to cower in a corner and call the cops while training your firearm on the doorway to your bedroom?
Is it better to cower in a corner with your firearm trained on the doorway since you have no way of calling for help, since you left your phone in the other room?

Or, do you loudly announce that you're in the bedroom unarmed and proceed to pull an Aestu by TL;DRing when he demands you hand over your money, hoping that all your bloviating about how you studied 'the classics' helps you understand him better than he understands himself, will somehow buy you some safety?
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:17 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Usdk wrote:
oh christ your reading comp really is shit.


Says the guy who finds reading books 2 hurd.

Grow a pair of balls and say you've settled on your irrational ideas for your own irrational reasons. Or do the best thing a pussy and moron can do and shut the hell up.

But acting like the stupid kid who just goes "WUT" when someone tells him to stop saying or doing stupid things, because he doesn't have the brains to come up with a witty response or the balls to remain silent, until he gets hit or told to go sit in the corner just makes you look as stupid as that kid looks to everyone but himself.

And actually come to think of it I bet that's exactly the sort of person you are. You will never admit it but the reason you want to be a cop is to avoid either of those inevitable recurrent outcomes.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:40 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
You're forever alone in your bed, ready to close your eyes for the night when a large man of unknown color, religion, ethnic or socioeconomic background kicks in your apartment door.


None of which matter. It makes no difference to me if a thug is black or white. Only in your own mind. And why kick in the door? Wouldn't it make more sense to just try all the doors in the neighborhood, looking for one that was left unlocked, or look for an open window at ground level?

See, you're describing a fantasy. Something that is just not cogent in real life.

Eturnalshift wrote:
You don't know if he's armed. You don't know what he wants.


You're right, I don't. So waving around a shotgun when he could well have an automatic weapon isn't very bright, now is it?

There are some psychotic killers who will take targets of opportunity, usually homeless people, prostitutes, isolated individuals or innocent bystanders, and there are house robbers, who want your stuff and will take the path of least resistance, but your Walter Mitty fantasies of Zulu raiders looking to invade your house at midnight, rape your wife and take your scalp as a trophy are just that, a fantasy.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Is it better to cower in a corner and call the cops, hoping this guy doesn't find you pissing yourself?
Is it better to cower in a corner and call the cops while training your firearm on the doorway to your bedroom?
Is it better to cower in a corner with your firearm trained on the doorway since you have no way of calling for help, since you left your phone in the other room?


The best thing to do is to matter-of-factly say, "Who's there? What do you want?"

Eturnalshift wrote:
Or, do you loudly announce that you're in the bedroom unarmed and proceed to pull an Aestu by TL;DRing when he demands you hand over your money, hoping that all your bloviating about how you studied 'the classics' helps you understand him better than he understands himself, will somehow buy you some safety?


How did Sun Tzu put it? Know your enemy and know yourself and you'll never lose, if you don't know yourself or your enemy then you'll always lose? One might almost think he's saying that knowing your opponent better than himself is the basis of a solid defense strategy.

I guess you think that no one who has ever gotten in a real fight reads that crap or finds it useful? Or maybe you're just so unaccustomed to using your brain that it doesn't occur to you that it might actually confer a defensive advantage if you can use it better than someone else? Why do you think people evolved brains, anyway? Oh wait...never mind.

What we have here is a coward who can't deal with his lack of courage in any way other than cowering in a corner or overcompensating with bravado. And his inability to admit to himself that he is a coward compels him to narrow his options and force a false duality on himself, rather than admit that he's dismissing other options for irrational, emotional reasons.

To answer your question directly: that is pretty much what I would do, because it is clearly the option most likely to produce a favorable outcome.
That is the point, right? Or are we in Walter Mitty land?

In the kind of situation you describe, fear and aggression are equally likely to get you killed. If the invader sees you are paralyzed by fear, he will be emboldened. If he sees you are aggressive, his instinct will be to try to neutralize you.

If the invader sees that you are neither paralyzed by fear nor aggressive he has only two options available to him: state his demands or retreat. Since killing you would guarantee life in prison, and it's unlikely he could make a clean escape with your stuff, he will probably just beat a hasty retreat and look for an easier mark.

Now, for this strategy to work, you need to have a bit of manly courage. So of course, it's not for everyone.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:53 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to just try all the doors in the neighborhood, looking for one that was left unlocked, or look for an open window at ground level?

Are you suggesting that people have never kicked in front doors? You're getting hung up on semantics... the point is someone could force themselves into your residence by kicking in the front door, parachuting through the window or cutting a hole through your wall.

Aestu wrote:
You're right, I don't. So waving around a shotgun when he could well have an automatic weapon isn't very bright, now is it?

There are some psychotic killers who will take targets of opportunity, usually homeless people, prostitutes, isolated individuals or innocent bystanders, and there are house robbers, who want your stuff and will take the path of least resistance, but your Walter Mitty fantasies of Zulu raiders looking to invade your house at midnight, rape your wife and take your scalp as a trophy are just that, a fantasy.

Again, are you suggesting this has never happened? Are you suggesting it can't happen? More importantly, if you are saying it could happen, but it's not likely, then who are you to try to take away my means of defending myself or my family? The point of training a gun on the doorway isn't to wave the shotgun around... the point is so you can be ready to pull the trigger if once the person who appears in the door is positively identified as an intruder.

Aestu wrote:
The best thing to do is to matter-of-factly say, "Who's there? What do you want?"

I disagree. You should try to call the cops and either maintain a defensive position or escape harm if you can. I wouldn't announce where I am or attempt to engage the person(s) in conversation because I've then given my location away. If I were a woman, they'd be able to tell that. Also, talking to someone who is breaking into your house might aggravate them more.

Aestu wrote:
How did Sun Tzu put it? Know your enemy and know yourself and you'll never lose, if you don't know yourself or your enemy then you'll always lose? One might almost think he's saying that knowing your opponent better than himself is the basis of a solid defense strategy.

You're missing part of that quote and a condition I'm guessing you omitted out of convenience. If I had to guess, there's a very good chance that you don't know the person breaking into your place.

Aestu wrote:
What we have here is a coward who can't deal with his lack of courage in any way other than cowering in a corner or overcompensating with bravado. And his inability to admit to himself that he is a coward compels him to narrow his options and force a false duality on himself, rather than admit that he's dismissing other options for irrational, emotional reasons.

What we really have here is a kid who doesn't realize there are some evil people in this world who don't give a fuck about you or your life. They will attack or even kill you for some cheap laughs, the change in your pocket or the shoes on your feet. They have no concern for your family and friends, nor do they respect you or your property. For whatever reason, they will risk consequence to use whatever underhanded means to get what they want.

When I asked you those questions earlier I was simply trying to "put you in a victims shoes", but clearly that was a wash. If you want to have a fucking tea party with these people then go right ahead... In all reality, I don't care how you choose to confront people breaking into your apartment. I really don't. What I do care about is people like you, who have such a loose grasp on the realities and dangers of the world they seldom venture into, trying to dictate to me how I can best protect myself when I think my life is in danger.

Aestu wrote:
In the kind of situation you describe, fear and aggression are equally likely to get you killed. If the invader sees you are paralyzed by fear, he will be emboldened. If he sees you are aggressive, his instinct will be to try to neutralize you.

If the invader sees that you are neither paralyzed by fear nor aggressive he has only two options available to him: state his demands or retreat. Since killing you would guarantee life in prison, and it's unlikely he could make a clean escape with your stuff, he will probably just beat a hasty retreat and look for an easier mark.

For someone who wants to criticize me for only having two options of cowering or going on the offensive, you sure liked to narrow down the possibilities to fit your desired outcome. Maybe the BBC doesn't report on local matters like these, which are clearly happening in your small part of the country, but if you decided to open your damn eyes, maybe you'd see this stuff does happen and people have a right to protect themselves from these every-day, non-national headline grabbing events.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:12 pm  
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Still not a single objectively good reason to have such loose restrictions on guns. I really really really want to hear just ONE reason, and I will drop this completely. I honestly don't give a shit if you want to own a gun, since everyone here is a law-abiding citizen in this regard. But if you really want to own one, I want you to jump through as many hoops as possible and accept all responsibility related to the gun in order to do so.

Why should I be less safe thanks to people who want to be a badass? Who want to get themselves killed trying to show their bravado defending themselves? If you lower restrictions on guns and every low-life can easily get one for no reason, you're making MY life harder and less safe. No, the solution for me is NOT to get a gun. I'm smart enough to know this. I want it to be AS DIFFICULT AS POSSIBLE for criminals and would-be criminals to get guns. If you are a law-abiding citizen, you have nothing to worry about. Just do the work and you can get your damn gun and jack off with it. Don't bitch and moan like a ginormous pussy for all the shit you need to go through.

I mean, really, if you're complaining about something as easy as paperwork and waiting, how am I to believe that you'd be willing to go through training in order to use your new toy responsibly?

Bunch of babies.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:17 pm  
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The paperwork doesn't bother me. The gun grabbing bothers me. I'll be happy to fill out however many volumes I have to so that I can legally purchase and own a reasonable fire arm. Not fully auto, not explosive, not incendiary, not suppressed, not drum magazine. There are plenty of places to meet in the middle on this issue.

Unless you're a criminal.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:27 pm  
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Fantastique wrote:
Still not a single objectively good reason to have such loose restrictions on guns. I really really really want to hear just ONE reason, and I will drop this completely.

Fine. Good reasons to have loose restrictions for law abiding citizens to own firearms are:
* Guns are fun.
* Constitutionally, people are allowed to own them.
* They can help provide for national defense.
* They can provide home defense in the event that someone breaks in.
* They can provide personal defense for yourself or others.
* They can be used for sport.
* They can be used for hunting.

Quote:
Why should I be less safe thanks to people who want to be a badass? Who want to get themselves killed trying to show their bravado defending themselves?

Because I'm a giant pussy, I'd rather die fighting to defend myself or my family rather than die not trying to defend either. I don't know how me wanting to defend my family like a badass is going to make you feel less safe.

Quote:
I honestly don't give a shit if you want to own a gun, since everyone here is a law-abiding citizen in this regard. But if you really want to own one, I want you to jump through so many hoops and accept all responsibility related to it in order to do so.

If a person wants to kill people they don't have to use a gun. State laws vary, but I thought most require background checks and if you're a criminal then you can't legally purchase a weapon. Other states, like California, have waiting periods before you can obtain a weapon... but I think it's only for specific types. How many sheets of paper or background checks would you rather I get before I legally buy a gun? Shouldn't one of each, at most, be enough?

Quote:
I want it to be AS DIFFICULT AS POSSIBLE for criminals and would-be criminals to get guns.
You know criminals are law-abiding citizens before they commit a crime. Like the killer in Colorado, he obtained all his weapons legally (although I'm not sure if the 100 round barrel feed is legal) and he wasn't a criminal prior to his actions. What then?

Going home.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:42 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Fantastique wrote:
Still not a single objectively good reason to have such loose restrictions on guns. I really really really want to hear just ONE reason, and I will drop this completely.

Fine. Good reasons to have loose restrictions for law abiding citizens to own firearms are:
* Guns are fun.
* Constitutionally, people are allowed to own them.
* They can help provide for national defense.
* They can provide home defense in the event that someone breaks in.
* They can provide personal defense for yourself or others.
* They can be used for sport.
* They can be used for hunting.


Not an objective reason. Nationally, we have the military, which doesn't have to worry about the restrictions I'm referring to (you knew this too). Not an ideal (or even practical) form of home defense. Not an ideal (or even practical) means of personal defense. They can be used for sport even with mountains of restrictions. They can be used for hunting even with mountains of restrictions.

Yeah, still nothing.

Quote:
Because I'm a giant pussy, I'd rather die fighting to defend myself or my family rather than die not trying to defend either. I don't know how me wanting to defend my family like a badass is going to make you feel less safe.


You vying for less restrictions makes it easier for anyone who has ever thought of killing to obtain the means to do so. I've mentioned this already.

Quote:
If a person wants to kill people they don't have to use a gun. State laws vary, but I thought most require background checks and if you're a criminal then you can't legally purchase a weapon. Other states, like California, have waiting periods before you can obtain a weapon... but I think it's only for specific types. How many sheets of paper or background checks would you rather I get before I legally buy a gun? Shouldn't one of each, at most, be enough?


No, they don't HAVE to but it's the EASIEST way for them to succeed. To bring up the Colorado incident, I doubt he would have come close to killing 12 and injuring 70+ people with his fists, a knife, a baseball bat, etc. Saving even ONE person from being killed is enough to make guns completely and utterly illegal, though that is not what I am advocating here.

Quote:
You know criminals are law-abiding citizens before they commit a crime. Like the killer in Colorado, he obtained all his weapons legally (although I'm not sure if the 100 round barrel feed is legal) and he wasn't a criminal prior to his actions. What then?


Why make it so easy for him to obtain his weapons? I don't get how saying he bought them legally helps your argument. If anything, what this means is that they should have been illegal so he wouldn't have been able to buy them in that moment that he decided to kill people. Making the process a thousand times more difficult may have made him think "Ugh, this isn't worth all this trouble!"

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Going home.


See you soon!


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:03 pm  
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What would have happened during the American Revolution if none of the colonists had been allowed to own guns, and hadn't been able to form militias?



Before you all jump on me, I'm not saying it would apply now. I'm just posing the question.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:07 pm  
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They would have gotten guns and formed militias anyway.

It would only have been a little more difficult.


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