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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:00 pm  
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I'm just gonna quote myself.

Yuratuhl wrote:
Of course it won't lead to a peaceful utopia with no deaths whatsoever, because that's an utter impossibility. But more restrictive gun control will absolutely save more lives than it ends. The problem isn't "criminals" as you and Eturnal are defining them. The problem is what you perceive as ordinary people. A man with a gun who catches his wife in the act of cheating on him can more easily have a lapse of judgment that causes two deaths. No gun? No double-homicide, an easy divorce, he keeps all his shit and part of hers. One life is damaged, instead of three being destroyed forever.

A kid with psychological problems who is the victim of repeat bullying has had enough of this shit. He knows his stepdad, the one he doesn't really care for anyway, owns an 18-shot autoloader. Even if he doesn't know how to reload, that's a lot of dead and injured kids at school the next day. No guns? He brings a knife instead. He doesn't know how to knife fight. He gets tackled by someone bigger than him, or gets hit with a textbook, or everyone runs and he's left there looking stupid because a knife has no range.

People do idiotic things all the fucking time. Guns are an enabler. The ultimate enabler. Take them out of the equation, and you pretty much completely eliminate deaths from crimes of passion.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:11 pm  
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Fantastique wrote:
Because people are idiots. That's the short answer, anyway.


That's incredibly short-sighted and uncharitable, and wouldn't explain why a majority of people do anything. Were a majority of people just being "stupid" to elect Obama? That's a cop-out argument you could apply to anything.

Fantastique wrote:
No, it's because conservatives refuse to meet in the middle on just about anything. It's their way or the highway. See also: President Bush's response to France questioning the Iraq war.


Why do you think that is? When have the Republicans ever gotten their end of any of these "compromises?" When Reagan when along with Tip O'Neill in the 80s and gave the Democrats some things they wanted in exchange for budget cuts that never happened, was that really compromise, or was that just Republicans giving Democrats what they wanted for nothing in return? Republicans have been getting burnt on "compromise" since at least the Reagan era, I'm not sure what's so shocking their attitude. Their supporters don't want compromise, they want their policies enacted.

Fantastique wrote:
Most people thought the Titanic was unsinkable too. They also thought her sister ship (the Britannic) was unsinkable AFTER 1912. We all know how far they got with those beliefs.


Yet there are facts to show they were wrong. You can't honestly say that guns are really a problem when you consider how many there are in the hands of private citizens and contrast that against how rare incidents like the Aurora shooting really are.

Fantastique wrote:
Ah yes, politicians not touching a subject that ~50% of the nation feels strongly about (and would therefore lose those votes) is clearly reason to believe that the subject is inherently not worth discussing. Gotcha.

This assertion would only even remotely hold water if there were term limits.


You're assuming at least half the people in the country agree with you about guns. There are a lot of places where people still vote Democrat that aren't at all keen about gun laws.

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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:53 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Fantastique wrote:
And the offer to show me a great benefit to owning guns that outweighs all the shit they can cause is still on the table. I am always open to changing my mind, but I usually arrive at my decisions after having pondered the alternatives for a while. You'd have to really look for a good reason.

Well, I already made my case that gun ownership is beneficial for the defense of a nation or individual. I gave examples of events in recent history where guns helped fight off invading forces or provided security for individuals and communities when the government failed to maintain order and control. I've also proven that people do break into houses with weapons or can simply attack someone on the street with a weapon, for no reason... and I've expressed my opinion that it's wrong for you, or anyone else, to tell a person that they can't defend themselves with force equal to that of their aggressor.

Aestu dismissed all this stuff as "opinion being turned into fact", as if none of this shit ever happened. Well, the last bit was an opinion... anyways, he can enjoy his 'victory' all he wants, I guess. :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Fantastique wrote:
I want the restrictions because I think this "hobby" / "interest" makes us all less safe and more barbaric with 0 benefit whatsoever. Again, I'm not against something someone does so long as it doesn't hurt me or people I care about (see: my opinion on gay marriage).

Based on figures floated from gun manufacturers, retailers and surveys, there are estimates that some 70,000,000 people own 300,000,000 firearms in the united states. If these numbers are accurate, that means about 30% of adults in the united states are gun owners. In 2007, around 13,000 people were murdered by a firearm. If every single homicide that year was done by a different gun owner (and if my math skills aren't failing me), then something like 0.02% of gun owners are responsible for all your fears?

When a large majority of gun owners are non-violent individuals with no intention of misusing their firearm, I don't get how it's the right action to impose the will of a minority on EVERYONE, because of the actions of a fraction of a single percentage point of gun owners.

Quote:
No, it's because conservatives refuse to meet in the middle on just about anything.

Constitutionally, there is no other requirement for a person to own a firearm. As it stands, owners need to have background checks, fill out applications, have permits, register their weapon, take training courses, etc. We also have limitations on which types of firearms we can own, which types of ammunition we can use, and when and where we can use the firearms. If we say, "The far left of the spectrum is a ban on all firearms and the far right is unrestricted ownership of all firearms", where exactly is this 'middle' you want us to meet at?


Last edited by Eturnalshift on Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:54 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Gun fetishism is driven by fear.

Not just fear of getting shot so much as fear of life itself. Americans have always been an individualistic people who define themselves as individuals in a nation by their ability to navigate the road of life by way of their own mettle. (In fact, I would like to do a study if there is a stronger correlation between refusing to ask for directions and being a man or being a American).

When that confidence in one's ability to navigate the road of life comes into question for good reason, fear takes root. That fear has to be addressed. Guns are one non-answer that the American people have come to fixate on. Drugs, consumerism, and bizarre fads are others. All are various ways of instilling oneself with a sense of confidence in one's place in the world, one's ability to control one's life.

But there is another very big factor that I most do not appreciate. The Baby Boomers. Americans like I said have long been an individualistic people, but that individualism has always been tempered by a sense of nationalism, conservatism and discipline. The Baby Boomers never believed in those things, because they weren't raised with them, because the Greatest Generation made sure they didn't have to be.

When the Baby Boomers were forced to pretend they grew up, guns went from being a narrow concern to a fetish. Guns were attractive to the Baby Boomers as a symbol of unrestrained individuality and personal omnipotence against a world increasingly defined by individual powerlessness and vicious uncertainty, through decades of moral doubt and decline in employee power. Guns, and things like Botox, Xanax, tax cuts, and various other forms of mindless self-indulgence.

The Baby Boomers reshaped the world in their image, a wild free-for-all, and the dialogue since has reflected that. We - the younger generation - are widely maligned, but we actually much more mature than the Baby Boomers who are retiring from their 40-year-reign as we speak.

Those today who came of age in the early 21st century are more likely to deal in tangibles, more likely to demand burden of proof (or affect to), more driven by questions of what is existentially good or worthwhile than by questions of what is accepted or respected, more driven by love of country and less by mindless careerism, less confined by the two-party system, and, in general, take life much more seriously.

People talk about how our generation has had it easy and I say that's horseshit. No one ever had it as easy as the Baby Boomers. The dumbass PHB Baby Boomer middle manager is culturally ubiquitous. Baby Boomers never had to deal with drug tests, mass unemployment, extortionate bank fees, wage slavery, grossly regressive taxation, or the pervasive influence of litigation mania through all levels of American society.

The gun obsession is just something else the Baby Boomers left behind, together with their doubts, their venality, and their folly. At least that's how I see it.

Jubbergun wrote:
That's incredibly short-sighted and uncharitable, and wouldn't explain why a majority of people do anything. Were a majority of people just being "stupid" to elect Obama?


Yes.

Jubbergun wrote:
That's a cop-out argument you could apply to anything.


The criteria I would use would be the absence of reasonable reasons. As we've seen in this thread, people will contrive and rationalize even when presented with contrary information.

Jubbergun wrote:
Why do you think that is? When have the Republicans ever gotten their end of any of these "compromises?" When Reagan when along with Tip O'Neill in the 80s and gave the Democrats some things they wanted in exchange for budget cuts that never happened, was that really compromise, or was that just Republicans giving Democrats what they wanted for nothing in return? Republicans have been getting burnt on "compromise" since at least the Reagan era, I'm not sure what's so shocking their attitude. Their supporters don't want compromise, they want their policies enacted.


Budget cuts to what? Reagan ran a deficit it because he increased government spending on the military during a period of high inflation and low economic growth. The only reason things turned around was the fortuitously timed Information Revolution, and not the policies of any politician (except Senator Gore).

Jubbergun wrote:
Yet there are facts to show they were wrong. You can't honestly say that guns are really a problem when you consider how many there are in the hands of private citizens and contrast that against how rare incidents like the Aurora shooting really are.


Rare by whose and what standard?
If you define rarity in relative terms, then mass shootings are common in America.

Jubbergun wrote:
You're assuming at least half the people in the country agree with you about guns. There are a lot of places where people still vote Democrat that aren't at all keen about gun laws.


The reverse is also true. American politics are so gridlocked that an issue need not have 50% of the population feeling strong about it for it to be anathema.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:11 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Well, I already made my case that gun ownership is beneficial for the defense of a nation or individual. I gave examples of events in recent history where guns helped fight off invading forces or provided security for individuals and communities when the government failed to maintain order and control.


No you did not. The only example you gave was Afghanistan and that isn't relevant because we aren't Afghans any more than we're Native Americans. Everything else you said was empty conjecture.

Eturnalshift wrote:
I've also proven that people do break into houses with weapons or can simply attack someone on the street with a weapon, for no reason... and I've expressed that it's wrong for you, or anyone else, to tell a person that they can't defend themselves with force equal to that of their aggressor.


You proved that. You didn't prove it's relevant to your argument.

For it to be relevant to your argument to be valid you would have to establish guns would do more to ameliorate the problem than make it worse. Statistics from the EU prove that gun ownership increases gun crime more than it decreases gun crime.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Aestu dismissed all this stuff as "opinion being turned into fact", as if none of this shit ever happened.


What happened?

Americans with guns driving off the Red Chinese occupation?
Europeans without guns enjoyed ~75% less crime rate and ~90-95% less gun crime rate than Americans?
Americans with guns brought the crime rate below the rest of the civilized world?
American militia failed at protecting the White House from Red Canadianists?
French, Germans and Russians without guns overthrew violently oppressive regimes?

What happened? What didn't happen?

Eturnalshift wrote:
Based on figures floated from gun manufacturers, retailers and surveys, there are estimates that some 70,000,000 people own 300,000,000 firearms in the united states. If these numbers are accurate, that means about 30% of adults in the united states are gun owners. In 2007, around 13,000 people were murdered by a firearm. If every single homicide that year was done by a different gun owner (and if my math skills aren't failing me), then something like 0.02% of gun owners are responsible for all your fears?


You're still talking about a gun crime rate 10-20x that of countries with strong gun laws.

You talk about sympathy for victims but now you're saying those dead loved ones are just a number on a page that, to you, is conveniently sufficiently small.

So how much do those "victims" really matter to you? Do you think someone whose brother or daughter drew the short stick would find that "0.02%" reassuring, especially if they were offered a redo with 10x better odds?

Eturnalshift wrote:
When a large majority of gun owners are non-violent individuals with no intention of misusing their firearm, I don't get how it's the right action to impose the will of a minority on EVERYONE, because of the actions of a fraction of a single percentage point of gun owners.

For the same reason slavery is illegal. You often like to say that some slave owners were honorable people who treated their slaves decently. I'll agree with that.

But even if 99% of slave owners were decent people, slavery would still be wrong, because it is not just anyone should have such power over another.

A gun is that same sort of power, a level of power that no one man should have over another in a civilized society. That some people can exercise that power with the proper restraint does not change the fact that the power ought not be granted to anyone except for the most dire reasons and with the most onerous burdens of responsibility and accountability.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:17 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
A gun is that same sort of power, a level of power that no one man should have over another in a civilized society.

Welcome to America, where almost every single American can own a weapon. The reason someone can have a level of power greater than your own is because you refuse to arm yourself. That's not my problem. Tuhl said guns are enablers? Perhaps they're also equalizers, too.

Also worth nothing that European countries have lower firearm crime rates, but their firearm crime rate isn't at 0%. Looks like in those 'civilized societies', people still find the ability to hold a power over others.

Quote:
That 99% of gun owners can exercise that power with the proper restraint does not change the fact that the power ought not be granted to anyone except for the most dire reasons and with the most onerous burdens of responsibility and accountability.

So you're suggesting we give people guns after the need for a gun has passed?

Plus, I think gun owners already have a huge burden of responsibility and accountability.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:27 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Welcome to America, where almost every single American can own a weapon. The reason someone can have a level of power greater than your own is because you refuse to arm yourself. That's not my problem. Tuhl said guns are enablers? Perhaps they're also equalizers, too.


My having a gun gives me no power against someone deciding to shoot me or hold me at gunpoint.

Guns inherently empower the crazy more than the sane. A sane man isn't willing to shoot if he thinks he will die; a crazy man is.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Also worth nothing that European countries have lower firearm crime rates, but their firearm crime rate isn't at 0%. Looks like in those 'civilized societies', people still find the ability to hold a power over others.


So are you contending that if everyone had a gun, would the crime rate be zero?
Or were we merely debating what policy would be best, not what would be perfect?

Eturnalshift wrote:
So you're suggesting we give people guns after the need for a gun has passed?

Giving people guns before the need has come is more likely to get an innocent man shot dead than giving them guns after the need has passed by dialing 9-1-1.

Again, the debate as such is over, this is merely your personal attitude speaking.

Eturnalshift wrote:
Plus, I think gun owners already have a huge burden of responsibility and accountability.


By what standard?

Israel has legal gun ownership. They also have universal military service that pays shit and is useless on your resume because everyone is compelled to do it, and exorbitant taxes to pay for it. And they live their lives in constant fear of both foreign and domestic terrorism. Even with the best security in the world, their own PM died to a bullet from a crazy person not ten years ago.

Switzerland has legal gun ownership. They, like the Israelis, have universal, mandatory, poorly-paid military training. And like everyone else in Europe who owns a gun they have to fill out piles of paperwork, not only when they procure the weapon but when they do pretty much anything with it. In America you have to have a conceal carry permit. But in Switzerland you have to get a permit to just take the weapon outside, every time you do so.

Mexico has legal gun ownership. Gun violence is so out of control that they have declared martial law in large swaths of the country. If you look at a soldier the wrong way you are now dead. If you look at a gangster the wrong way you are now dead. If someone thinks you might shoot him first for any insane reason you are now dead.

So what standard of "burden" are you using?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:31 pm  
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Switzerland


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:37 pm  
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Meowth wrote:
Switzerland


Quote:
Switzerland has legal gun ownership. They, like the Israelis, have universal, mandatory, poorly-paid military training. And like everyone else in Europe who owns a gun they have to fill out piles of paperwork, not only when they procure the weapon but when they do pretty much anything with it. In America you have to have a conceal carry permit. But in Switzerland you have to get a permit to just take the weapon outside, every time you do so.


And the Swiss do not use their weapons for personal defense. Proof being that in Switzerland it is illegal to carry a weapon for that purpose. In fact, you couldn't even if you wanted to, because as Azelma suggested, guns are legal but bullets are not!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... witzerland

Quote:
In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today...

...The sale of ammunition – including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles – is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia. There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there...

...To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security...

...Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply: The ammunition must be separated from the gun; the transport has to be direct.


Now maybe you want to say national defense is the same thing. So do you think that private citizens should have the right to build a tank or nuclear bomb in their backyard?

As a condition of having gun rights, would you be willing to pay much higher taxes and spend much of your productive life forced to work for the government? Is that a fair trade-off to you?

Meowth will either
A. not reply
B. give some snarky non-answer

And he will go on with his little life convinced that Switzerland is a relevant example even when hard facts have proven otherwise (and bitching that our government is too big, too expensive, and too onerous).

Gun fetishism isn't driven by anything rational. It may not be due to bone fide stupidity, but it certainly isn't rational.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:00 am  
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You actually replied to that again?
Neat.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:05 am  
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Quote:
Meowth wrote:
some snarky non-answer

You actually posted that again?
Neat.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:11 am  
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Not even a "someone post the image"? I'm slightly disappointed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:15 am  
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Meowth wrote:
Not even a "someone post the image"? I'm slightly disappointed.


For that image to be relevant, you would have to have reason to believe your effort to advance your opinion might have been successful. But you already knew your opinion had been crushed before you even posted it (again).

As I noted the debate has already ended; this is just the WWF turbo-staggered replay. Or mindless destruction of folding chairs.


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:17 am  
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I wasn't aware the Wildlife Fund gave commentated replays


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 Post subject: Re: The Media's Role in Perpetuating Mass Shootings
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:01 am  
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Jubbergun wrote:
Just don't bring up the gun thing.


No worries, I wouldn't. The last time we met, I think the only thing related to politics that came up was when I stated that "taxes suck" (because I finally had to pay some) and Eturnal's face was this:

Image

Sounds like a hoot, keep me posted on plans.


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