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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:23 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Battletard wrote:
Usdk wrote:
Black people have it really hard(so they tell me) and almost 100% of them vote democrat.

What reason would democrats have to change anything for them?

Seriously though, republicans hate black people? See GW Bush's contributions to africa/aids. Is this a recent enough example or is he still to hated to have done anything right ever?



Republicans love black people, because it's easy to control and manipulate them and obtain cheap labor as a result. Africa/AIDS is one small part of the equation. It's a smokescreen, it's the political equivalent of 'See, look I'm not racist I have lot's of black friends.'


What are you, racist?

Seriously though, if you're saying the system itself is designed to keep the black man down, it must also be designed to lift up the asians and the indians who come here and succeed.


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:36 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Usdk wrote:
Battletard wrote:
Usdk wrote:
Black people have it really hard(so they tell me) and almost 100% of them vote democrat.

What reason would democrats have to change anything for them?

Seriously though, republicans hate black people? See GW Bush's contributions to africa/aids. Is this a recent enough example or is he still to hated to have done anything right ever?



Republicans love black people, because it's easy to control and manipulate them and obtain cheap labor as a result. Africa/AIDS is one small part of the equation. It's a smokescreen, it's the political equivalent of 'See, look I'm not racist I have lot's of black friends.'


What are you, racist?

Seriously though, if you're saying the system itself is designed to keep the black man down, it must also be designed to lift up the asians and the indians who come here and succeed.


It is, indirectly. Their cultures are entirely different. I'm really starting to understand Aestu's perspective on all this a little better. The institutionalized disenfranchisement of minorities and the damage done by society in the past and the damage that continues today really does 'keep the black man down', though I agree with Eturnal that the issues have transitioned from being racially oriented issues to issues based on socioeconomic standing, which includes whites at a much lower rate.

On the Asian and Indian side of the equation, the family unit is extremely important within their societies, and while that doesn't correlate directly with education, it is a legitimate point to raise because proper parenting and strong family ties are crucial to raising well adjusted children regardless of where you are from. This is not the politically correct reality, but it is the reality.

In the poorest families in America (which transcend racial lines, but are predominantly black and latino..and still include whites) the family unit is in absolute disarray. It's no longer strictly limited to race, but if the issues disproportionately affect minorities the involvement of race in the discussion is inevitable.

Republicans love cheap labor, regardless of race. I agree with this assessment.


I'm not really sure how to close this, but that's basically where I'm coming from.


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:38 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
Battletard wrote:
Usdk wrote:
Black people have it really hard(so they tell me) and almost 100% of them vote democrat.

What reason would democrats have to change anything for them?

Seriously though, republicans hate black people? See GW Bush's contributions to africa/aids. Is this a recent enough example or is he still to hated to have done anything right ever?



Republicans love black people, because it's easy to control and manipulate them and obtain cheap labor as a result. Africa/AIDS is one small part of the equation. It's a smokescreen, it's the political equivalent of 'See, look I'm not racist I have lot's of black friends.'


What are you, racist?

Seriously though, if you're saying the system itself is designed to keep the black man down, it must also be designed to lift up the asians and the indians who come here and succeed.


They're in a sense, outsiders though and the rules of our system don't entirely apply to them, because they are coming here from other countries were the value system (especially when you consider how they treat education and elder worship/respect and such) is dramatically different than our own. The 'system' regulates and controls them in other ways though, mainly imparted by how we treat their culture (china town? racial/ethnic enclaves).


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:45 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2011/03/u-s-prisons-now-hold-more-black-men-than-slavery-ever-did/

Food for thought.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:47 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I went to china town in san fran and it was fucking awesome start to finish.

the vast majority of latinos i know are in complete families, both parents, some gparents and kids, dont know if this is unusual or not.

almost all black and white families that I know dont have the biological father involved, either by death like in my case, or divorce in the majority of the rest.

The problem isn't race, the problem is the system rewards women for running out on their husbands, or at least has a safety net in alimony and child support payments on top of government assistance which makes kicking the man out more tempting than it should be.

EDIT: Read that article. Battled through rainstorms? What is this, 1492?


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:55 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
I went to china town in san fran and it was fucking awesome start to finish.

the vast majority of latinos i know are in complete families, both parents, some gparents and kids, dont know if this is unusual or not.

almost all black and white families that I know dont have the biological father involved, either by death like in my case, or divorce in the majority of the rest.


Ancedotes and that backs up my response. Being culturally insular helps retain culture and promote ethnic values, but it still promotes segregation (self imposed or no) and isn't beneficial to society as a whole.

Usdk wrote:
The problem isn't race, the problem is the system rewards women for running out on their husbands, or at least has a safety net in alimony and child support payments on top of government assistance which makes kicking the man out more tempting than it should be.


Debatable. Ancedotes can and will only get you so far; what about (especially in impoverished areas (urban ghettos) instances where the men run off - the vast majority of households in impoverished urban areas are single parent households run by a woman. Seriously, you can't just approach the issue from this formulaic "wimminfolk hate de men and take der moni and enslave de men for 18 years' line. There are many more things at play, and while divorce laws are fucked currently (applicable 30 years ago, sure, but now? no way and they need to be reformed), they are by no means the only reason for the issue.

Quote:
EDIT: Read that article. Battled through rainstorms? What is this, 1492?


Don't try to pull an Aestu, it doesn't suit you.


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:05 pm  
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This topic got stupid really fast.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:08 pm  
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Callysta wrote:
This topic got stupid really fast.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


No points, it was already stupid to begin with. :P


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:15 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
That's just part of market capitalism... if a market/company values the labor of an individual at $X/hr (based on workmanship, demand, education, etc.), and if the consumer is willing to buy the product of that labor at a reasonable price, then that's the set price.


Capitalism is a scam because if it really worked that way the system would commit suicide.

Let's say it really worked that way, the market's valuation of labor and goods is entirely equivocal, and every worker, everywhere, regardless of race or nationality, competes on an even playing field. The cost of labor would plummet to low bid, which would be third-world peasants working for ten cents an hour.

In a modern industrial society, nominal per capita productivity is far higher than nominal per capita consumption, meaning that one worker can produce far more wealth through labor than he can consume with his wages. Because there would be no price floor for wages, and there would always be massive labor and production surpluses, the result would be massive overproduction and spiraling economic stratification, with fewer and fewer winners and more and more losers, until finally demand drops to near-zero and the system completely craps out.

This doesn't happen because of barriers in the system such as arbitrary differences in the valuation of currency, land and labor in different regions, as well as social mechanisms that ensure guaranteed markets such as nationalism and racism. Hence the American consumer props up Chinese productivity. This is also why corps rail about Social Security and other forms of welfare while quietly supporting those things: debt-fueled consumption keeps the system from imploding. If there were no wealth redistribution, or the printing of cash to hand out so people could buy things, the system would implode overnight because the capitalists would "win", purchasing power would drop to zero, and the game would end.

Black people were "fine" until the US became more of a true market economy. For the longest time, America was a traditional society, and black people didn't enter the market on the same terms as whites because employment and social roles were determined by traditional taboos and not market forces. That changed in the postwar era when we became more of a market economy, and that's when the reality of racism came into conflict with the reality of a "free" society, because blacks couldn't stick to doing black things anymore, like sharecropping and doing odd jobs, or living in mostly autarkic rural black towns, but instead were forced into mainstream society and direct competition with whites.

It holds true in other societies too. Look at so many other societies with unpopular ethnic minorities that are "fine", occupying traditionally defined roles in society, until modernization brings them in conflict with the dominant group because barriers and distances vanish and minority and majority suddenly have to compete on the same terms. Sikhs. Kurds. Uighurs. Armenians. Cossacks. Irish. In every case being an oppressed minority wasn't a catalyst for unrest and violence until freedom forced them into conflict.

I'm not saying I'm against ethnic/economic freedom. I'm just saying that the transition between the traditional world and a viable modern world is very difficult and requires a lot of social re-engineering. And in this real world, the vestiges traditional society is still what defines the market, such as it is, because if it were any other way, the result would be revolution.


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:26 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Zaryi wrote:
Ancedotes and that backs up my response. Being culturally insular helps retain culture and promote ethnic values, but it still promotes segregation (self imposed or no) and isn't beneficial to society as a whole.


We both have refrigerators full of French wine and cheese that disagree with you.

We could have a world of insular cultures, as long as those insular cultures have equivocal relationships with all other players. Chinatown is pretty insular, and has its own set of rules, and its symbiosis with greater San Francisco is pretty mutually beneficial.

What do you think of that model of insularity, or that of the provincial French manor?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:30 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Aestu wrote:
Eturnalshift wrote:
That's just part of market capitalism... if a market/company values the labor of an individual at $X/hr (based on workmanship, demand, education, etc.), and if the consumer is willing to buy the product of that labor at a reasonable price, then that's the set price.


I'm not saying I'm against ethnic/economic freedom. I'm just saying that the transition between the traditional world and a viable modern world is very difficult and requires a lot of social re-engineering.



I'm cutting this part out as a pre-emptive defense mechanism to 'tldr'.

It's probably the most important part of his post.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:38 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
almost all black and white families that I know dont have the biological father involved, either by death like in my case, or divorce in the majority of the rest.

The problem isn't race, the problem is the system rewards women for running out on their husbands, or at least has a safety net in alimony and child support payments on top of government assistance which makes kicking the man out more tempting than it should be.


You're looking at it backwards. The question is, what does a black husband bring to the table? Jokes about black men and pizzas aside, the fact is that the economic pressures of the system are enormously averse to family values. If unemployment is high and wages are low then a husband just doesn't have much to offer the family. Why should the family stick together?

Affirmative action is bad and ultimately serves to enshrine racism and the status quo, but the basic driving force - the need to raise black employment to ensure social stability - is sound. As React noted, the issue now is less and less race and more and more socioeconomics, and affirmative action just plays the two issues off against each other.

What is needed is opportunity for all. The fat cats don't want this because it's a threat to their power.
So instead we cut welfare checks and call it a day.

Further back, white slave owners made a point of dismantling black families in order to facilitate slavery. To say that doesn't matter because it was 150 years ago is asinine because, as React and Zaryi pointed out, Jews and Asians do well because of the family values they've developed over many thousands of years, and their dominance against WASPs doesn't look set to end anytime soon. So WASPs clearly can't do what they would ask of blacks which is rise to the bar in the here and now.

Values are that which is passed down and we are inheriting this toxic legacy. Changing it is not easy.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:03 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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This is the problem.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:28 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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At what point should people lay down grudges?


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 Post subject: Re: did Biden really..
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:32 pm  
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Usdk wrote:
At what point should people lay down grudges?


A grudge is never a good thing. The corollary of what React linked is that "remembering" the Holocaust or 9-11 or slavery becomes conflated with using those tragic historical events as a rationalization for new evils.

But to remember them - to understand and appreciate their importance, how they bring us to the here and now and what we must now do - is always important.

This, everyone seems to fail to do with slavery - not using it as carte blanche for affirmative action and other political BS but to really think hard about how it influenced black American life and the problems we inherit. Affirmative action ultimately exists because white Americans can't commit to a more equivocal approach (opportunity for all who need a leg up).


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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