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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:05 pm  
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Feckless Fool
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We had these conversations ~10 years ago at Uni.

Fucking weird :S


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:06 pm  
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French Faggot
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"Hollow point" is the one fact that adds more credence than anything else.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:21 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
"Hollow point" is the one fact that adds more credence than anything else.


I think a lot of "police" type forces use hollow points. The reason they are more destructive to people is because they break apart/slowdown upon impact. I think the prevailing theory is that if they use a hollow point it wont end up going through five bystanders and will instead just blow the fuck out of the robber it hits(and stick in him).

But then again...nine people believed injured by stray police gunfire... It doesn't seem they can hit what they are aiming at anyway : [


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:46 pm  
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Because shooting people is SUPPOSED to be an absolute last resort for police, some of the lesser minded ones tend to scrimp to maintain their marksmanship.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:55 pm  
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It's downtown NYC. If you don't hit the target you will hit someone else. Emptying a clip into a target at a range is one thing, shooting at another human being (especially one who is armed) is another. Besides the complications etc of being in the field, any reasonably normal person would be under tremendous stress in such a situation. I honestly don't think it's a training issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:17 pm  
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It's not a training issue, or at least not solely. The guns used by New York City police have modified trigger weights (several pounds heavier), which makes them more inaccurate. I don't remember why this is the case, but it's not the NYPD's choice so for once they may actually not be to blame.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:29 pm  
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawgiver_% ... d_weaponry


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:35 pm  
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Don't they (police) use hollow points to prevent collateral damage from through-penetration?


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:03 pm  
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The Specialist's Creed

No one gets away with more than I. I am not a Non-Commissioned Officer, a beast of burden. As a junior enlisted soldier I realize that I am a member of an under appreciated, much chastised group of soldiers which is known as the ribcage, or perhaps pancreas, of the Army.


I am proud of myself and my fellow Specialists and will continue to bitch, whine and sham until the absolute last second regardless of the mission at hand. I will use my grade and position to avoid responsibility, accountability and any sense of presence of mind.


Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue "I didn't know," and "It wasn't me." I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry.


I am aware of my role as a SPC and if you need me for anything, I'll be on appointment. I know the other soldiers, and I will always refer to them by their first name or in some cases derogatory nickname. On weekends, or days off I will consistently drink myself into oblivion, and I will never answer my phone. I understand that for a person in my hierarchal position, rewards are going to be few and far between, and punishment will always be swift and severe.


Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties, because I will be accomplishing them for them. I will kiss up to their face and badmouth them behind their back, just like everyone else. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve, provided there's something in it for me. I am the last bastion of common sense that stands between me and the Army philosophy of "Work Harder, Not Smarter." My voice is a tool and my complaints are a weapon that I wield with unmatched skill and finesse. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget, Specialist is the greatest rank in the Army and rank has its privileges.


Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves proud because they had no claws.
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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:07 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Weena wrote:
Don't they (police) use hollow points to prevent collateral damage from through-penetration?


Assuming the round itself hits, yes.

Cops are trained NOT to shoot at people when there are innocent civilians behind them. I'd be interested to find out what kind of wounds the victims received, be they ricochets or whatever.

I was just talking about a lot of different department policies with a friend of mine who's a cop not even 10 minutes ago. I hate y'all weren't there for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:14 pm  
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Dotzilla wrote:
Ignorance is my watchword. My two best excuses will always be on the tip of my tongue "I didn't know," and "It wasn't me." I will strive to remain invisible and unavailable for details. Never ever volunteer for anything is my rallying cry

Image

You feel your delusions under assault so you are trying to take comfort in empty slogans.

Being a pawn doesn't make you a hero.

What makes what you do better than anyone who ever fought in an army for any evil cause in history?

What makes you better than the soldiers in the employ of Saddam or Kim or the Axis or even bin Laden? Do you think they suck at their jobs, or they don't have a moral justification for what they do?

Usdk wrote:
I was just talking about a lot of different department policies with a friend of mine who's a cop not even 10 minutes ago. I hate y'all weren't there for it.

Has he ever shot a man? Ever been face-to-face with an armed and determined gunman?

From what I understand, it was a live-fire situation. Not shooting wasn't an option.

I mean maybe they do need more training. I just think this is a situation where so many variables were in play that it's not so easy to just blame incompetence.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:54 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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No and yes.

I think that it's not an incompetence issue, it's more of an issue that the officers in question had to make a judgement call, and either made the wrong one, or didn't execute it properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:39 am  
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Tasty Tourist
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Just to address the point about hollow points its pointless to train with FMJ (Full Metal Jacket) ammo and then carry only JHP(Jacketed Hollow Points) as duty ammo because they will differ in terms of ballistics and recoil so all that training time (or lack thereof for many PDs) is pointless, its the same axiom that many CCW people follow: shoot what you carry and carry what you shoot. As for the quantities purchased its not all what the mouth breathers are trying to sell you, most of those large quantities of ammo are to be acquired over a period of years in order to lock in a price for the ammo now but the delusional paranoid freaks have a vested interest in you thinking its all for some upcoming civil war nonsense because that's how they get hits to their blogs.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:02 am  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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That sort of stuff probably seems very realistic when you live in an ivory tower, but when you've got a more realistic perspective, there's a lot of things that blow up some of your underlying premises. Your "doesn't matter if you have guns, the government has more/bigger" doesn't account for places like Afghanistan, where the entrenched locals and their supporters have defied at least two super-powers despite their opponent's overwhelming technological advantage. Terrain and guerrilla tactics go a long way toward making life difficult for an invading force. Ask the Russians how much luck they had against dumb farmers with hunting rifles, or ask our guy's now how easy finishing the Taliban off has been.

The "doesn't matter if you have guns, the government has more/bigger" also, as I've probably said before, fails to account for what happens when you take a bunch of idealist young people and point them at their fellow citizens. There are some right bastards in the military, because it's only natural for those types to gravitate to places where they can indulge their baser impulses. I met more than a few doing some of the things I did early in my 'career.' They're the ones that take great pleasure in acts that everyone only does because the consequences of not committing those acts are worse than the acts themselves. The average service member, however, is going to have serious qualms about shooting their own countrymen, even if they're smelly hippies. With the military being comprised mostly of blacks and rural whites, two groups who on average are fairly religious and, ironically enough given their choice to serve, not given over to the idea top-down federal power (or as blacks call it "the man"), there would be defections. Those defections would probably be large and noticeable, and those defecting are likely going to take their toys with them.

Yuratuhl wrote:
It's not a training issue, or at least not solely. The guns used by New York City police have modified trigger weights (several pounds heavier), which makes them more inaccurate. I don't remember why this is the case, but it's not the NYPD's choice so for once they may actually not be to blame.


The NYPD standard side-arm has a 12-lb. trigger pull. That's like trying to lift a gallon-and-a-half of milk with your index finger. It is ridiculously high, and from what I understand, it's that way because the police union insists on it, though I don't know why.

The other part of the problem is that in "oh-shit" situations, everyone is going "oh-shit," and it tends to make them sloppy and stupid. Watch out for the guy that stands still long enough to aim, he's going to fuck people up while everyone else is running around like headless chickens shooting while they move.

The world is a complicated place, but not so complicated as to justify buying into nutty conspiracy theories. Conspiracies almost never work on a large scale (as this piece would suggest) because large scale requires too many people, and most people can't keep their fucking mouth shut. Not to mention, if there were any merit to this, no one would ever know, because any group capable of having their shit together enough, especially a group with control of/backing from the government/corporate interests, to actually do any of the things suggested would have their shit together enough to discredit this information (maybe that's what I'm secretly doing here now...ermegerd conderenterrigence) or make it and the people who developed it disappear. The fact that this "information" exists is practically proof that it's complete bullshit.

Stop with the nutty conspiracy theories. The government didn't do 9/11. Obama is not a socialist muslim Manchurian Candidate. Coca-Cola and Citibank aren't going to take over America. There is no conspiracy that explains why things are the way they are, it's just that some people want an explanation more glamorous than the simple and true answer of "people are complete idiots/bastards" to explain why things in the world are so fucked up. Buying into this horseshit makes about as much sense as being afraid of the boogeyman.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama, Romney, and the Road to Military Dictatorship
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:26 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Jubbergun wrote:
That sort of stuff probably seems very realistic when you live in an ivory tower, but when you've got a more realistic perspective, there's a lot of things that blow up some of your underlying premises. Your "doesn't matter if you have guns, the government has more/bigger" doesn't account for places like Afghanistan, where the entrenched locals and their supporters have defied at least two super-powers despite their opponent's overwhelming technological advantage. Terrain and guerrilla tactics go a long way toward making life difficult for an invading force. Ask the Russians how much luck they had against dumb farmers with hunting rifles, or ask our guy's now how easy finishing the Taliban off has been.


The tradeoff is stratospheric casualties and restricting progress to an Iron Age level. It's a big deal when an American soldier dies, or an American citizen gets shot by a disgruntled neighbor, but in Afghanistan life is cheap, making what you describe possible.

That's not what we want, is it?

Jubbergun wrote:
The "doesn't matter if you have guns, the government has more/bigger" also, as I've probably said before, fails to account for what happens when you take a bunch of idealist young people and point them at their fellow citizens. There are some right bastards in the military, because it's only natural for those types to gravitate to places where they can indulge their baser impulses. I met more than a few doing some of the things I did early in my 'career.' They're the ones that take great pleasure in acts that everyone only does because the consequences of not committing those acts are worse than the acts themselves. The average service member, however, is going to have serious qualms about shooting their own countrymen, even if they're smelly hippies. With the military being comprised mostly of blacks and rural whites, two groups who on average are fairly religious and, ironically enough given their choice to serve, not given over to the idea top-down federal power (or as blacks call it "the man"), there would be defections. Those defections would probably be large and noticeable, and those defecting are likely going to take their toys with them.


Yes and no. Hence the important distinction I make between the military's willingness to take part in political suppressions and its unwillingness to fight a mass uprising. The article I initially linked corroborates this.

Jubbergun wrote:
The NYPD standard side-arm has a 12-lb. trigger pull. That's like trying to lift a gallon-and-a-half of milk with your index finger. It is ridiculously high, and from what I understand, it's that way because the police union insists on it, though I don't know why.


I'm guessing it has to do with either retention or liability. That is an uninformed guess.

Jubbergun wrote:
The world is a complicated place, but not so complicated as to justify buying into nutty conspiracy theories. Conspiracies almost never work on a large scale (as this piece would suggest) because large scale requires too many people, and most people can't keep their fucking mouth shut. Not to mention, if there were any merit to this, no one would ever know, because any group capable of having their shit together enough, especially a group with control of/backing from the government/corporate interests, to actually do any of the things suggested would have their shit together enough to discredit this information (maybe that's what I'm secretly doing here now...ermegerd conderenterrigence) or make it and the people who developed it disappear. The fact that this "information" exists is practically proof that it's complete bullshit.


Not everyone who does something has to know, just the guys leading the charge. That is the nature of policy. That is the nature of leadership. Saying "it's outrageous so it can't be true" is pretty weak. Examine the facts for yourself and find fault where you will.

Jubbergun wrote:
Stop with the nutty conspiracy theories. The government didn't do 9/11. Obama is not a socialist muslim Manchurian Candidate. Coca-Cola and Citibank aren't going to take over America. There is no conspiracy that explains why things are the way they are, it's just that some people want an explanation more glamorous than the simple and true answer of "people are complete idiots/bastards" to explain why things in the world are so fucked up. Buying into this horseshit makes about as much sense as being afraid of the boogeyman.
[/quote]

It is not as simple as one grand conspiracy. But the country is definitely the victim of nefarious schemes by these insiders. Go read about China being cut up into "spheres of influence" or the goings-on with American corporations in Nigeria or Argentina. Or go read a Forscythe novel (he was in the biz). Never underestimate the motivational effect of human greed.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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