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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:25 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Yuratuhl wrote:
You guys all went to high schools full of shitty people.


There was next to no bullying in my school. If you tried, even the most helpless of people would stare right at you and say "What, you think you're on a tv show or something?" or "You watch too much Degrassi..." Boom, credibility and intimidation ability shot to shit.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:15 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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The bullying at Rio Americano HS started soon after Ethan began attending the school in August 2000. The first incidents he reported occurred in the Food class taught by Mrs. Tillman. When Ethan registered for this elective class, the guidance counselor, Mrs. Brownfield, said the class was unstructured and not academic; actually it was chaotic and disorganized. Mrs. Tillman was unable to control the class and, in addition, was frequently absent. During class, food and other objects were frequently thrown at Ethan by students. One day a student brought a water gun to class and doused Ethan in the classroom in front of other students. These incidents occurred while the class was in session exposing Ethan publicly to humiliation and creating a situation where the bullying by certain students escalated. The worst incident related to Food class occurred when a student from the class chased Ethan around the campus at lunchtime, punching him repeatedly in the face and on the side of his head. The assault was so significant and we were so distraught we took photographs of the bruises and welts on Ethan’s face. (We have the pictures; however, they are blurred.)

We reported the incident to Mrs. Crespillo, the Vice Principal, but she told us she couldn’t do anything about it without the name of the assailant, even though the student was identified from the Food class. Her response was surprisingly passive considering the seriousness of the incident and our concern. Nothing was done to identify the student. Eventually Ethan was too upset to continue attending the class.

During his first year at Rio Ethan had an incident where he was pursued and forced off the road by a red Astrovan while riding home from school along American River Drive. The students inside the car, pulled up along side of him, spat at him, threw garbage at him, yelled “faggot” at him, and then forced him off the road with their vehicle. On another occasion, a blue SUV driven by students leaving Rio, also forced him off the road as he was riding home on his bicycle. These incidents upset us considerably, since it seemed that threats on his well-being were being made with a vehicle. When I went to talk to Mrs. Crespillo about the first incident with the Astrovan, she said she would look into it. On crossing the parking lot at the school that same day, we drove down the aisles and saw two red Astrovans as described by Ethan parked in student spaces. I never received any follow-up from Mrs. Crespillo about the incident. When I asked her about the incident several weeks later, she said she could not locate any car matching that description at Rio. I told her there were at least 2 in the lot on the day I first discussed the incident with her.

On another occasion, Ethan was on his bike leaving campus when someone threw a basketball at his front tire, knocking him off the bike. No investigation was made of this incident either.

Ethan was constantly taunted with the accusation of “faggot” by certain students, usually in groups. He could not enter the cafeteria without being verbally assaulted, pushed and shoved. The taunts, insults and physical intimidation were constant. He could not walk around campus because of persistent harassment, usually as other students looked on, adding to his pain and humiliation. The school’s inaction on both his and our complaints added frustration and a sense of hopelessness and injustice to Ethan’s shame and humiliation.


This behavior by the students at Rio became so pervasive and persistent, that Ethan would get taunts from cars driven by Rio students as he walked in our own neighborhood.
(which is in Rio’s attendance district and just a few miles from the school)

In the Spring, 2001, Ethan was called out of class one day and brought to the office by Mrs. Crespillo and a uniformed deputy, and in the presence of the VP, the deputy and another vice principal, Ethan was ordered to surrender his backpack for a search. He was also ordered to empty his pockets. Crespillo said she had received a phone call from a parent who said her child had told here that Ethan had plans to destroy/damage the school. Ethan asked that we be called. She refused. After the forced search, in which nothing was found, Ethan called home very upset and asked to be picked up. Mrs. Crespillo did not call me until several hours later and then reported what had happened. She was completely unapologetic about the abrupt and intimidating search and her refusal to call us at Ethan’s request. Crespillo claimed she did not know who the parent or child were who had made this claim. Ethan was emotionally overwhelmed by the physical confrontation and intimidation of the search and he refused to return to school for several days. The accusation itself was extremely upsetting to him.

Throughout the school year, most of Ethan’s absences from school followed days in which he experienced taunts and humiliation from students or the lack of action from the vice principal regarding such incidents. From our first meeting with Mrs. Crespillo, she displayed a rigid insensitive manner towards Ethan and us. Her demands that Ethan give her ‘names’ of the people bullying him was enormously frustrating to him. He didn’t know their names and doesn’t have the interpersonal skills to find out their names, especially in a hostile situation. When he did ask the person their name, the student would lie to him. When he asked someone else the name of the student, they would give him a different name and he would be further frustrated and humiliated. We had discussed Ethan’s disability many times with Mrs. Crespillo and she was fully aware that Ethan was a special ed student.


As these incidents continued and Ethan received no help with them, he became despondent about school and his outlook on school and his future seemed bleaker. His absences from school gradually became longer and more frequent. His behavior at school became irritable and hopeless. He was also frustrated that our contacts with Mrs. Crespillo did not result in any help with the daily conflicts. Despite the fact that Ethan’s disabilities affected his own resolution of the conflicts, Mrs. Crespillo failed to attend several IEP’s where these issues were discussed.

The rumors circulating regarding Ethan’s plans to damage the school were never addressed by Crespillo in any way and were, in fact, part of the taunting that led to Ethan being taken to the Mental Health facility on Stockton Blvd on 11/9/01. After all these incidents, Ethan completed the school year working with 2 teachhers in the Home and Hospital program

Ethan returned to Rio in August, 2001. Almost immediately, on the second day of school, rocks were thrown at his back as he crossed the quad at lunchtime. He reported this to us and it continued daily. By the second week of school, I went to Crespillo about the rock-throwing incidents. Crespillo said, as before, that she needed the names of the rock throwers. I pointed out that the rocks were being thrown from behind, Ethan did not see the specific culprits. I suggested someone be placed in the quad area to observe what was happening. She said she didn’t have people to use in this way. Then she said she would contact special ed about getting some assistance. She got on the phone to call Shelly Ellinghaus of Special Ed. I never again heard from Crepillo about this matter and the rock-throwing continued. On one occasion, Ethan was hit on his head so hard, his ear was ringing, and he had trouble hearing out of one ear. Still nothing was done to investigate or stop it.

It was very difficult for him to deal with this very public, humiliating harassment. An adult reported to me that a student she knew at Rio had seen Ethan in tears on the quad during lunchtime at the time the rock-throwing was going on. Ethan had made a friend and some acquaintances at school by Spring of last year and it was additionally difficult for him to have positive interactions while enduring these rock-throwing assaults. The daily humiliation and shame he experienced was profound. He kept trying to go on with school, but it was getting harder and harder.

In addition to the rock-throwing, Ethan continued to be called ‘faggot’ by several students. One day while crossing the campus on his bike, football practice was going on and someone from the crowd of football players called out “Ethan, you faggot.”
As these incidents continued, Michael and I were constantly frustrated with our inability to get the school to do anything about the bullying. It took enormous time and energy to help Ethan through these times. These issues were addressed at numerous IEPs.

On another occasion, Ethan found his bike brakes disengaged as he was to head home by bike. He was about to leave after his last class when he realized the brakes didn’t work. He was very upset and went to the office to call home for a ride. The principal, Robert Hollingsworth, went out and repaired the brakes for Ethan. Ethan didn’t know he was the principal. Hollingsworth never called us about the incident and never to our knowledge was anything pursued to find out who did it or to make sure it didn’t happen again. This was significant mischief and could have resulted in a serious bicycle accident. . After this incident, Ethan always felt additional anxiety about his bike and his safety.

The rock-throwing incidents continued until Ethan began to suspect someone in his English class was involved. In class on a Thursday, Ethan asked a classmate why he threw rocks at him. The kid mockingly answered, “Because I felt like it.” The next day the two of them got into a verbal exchange in class which ended with the kid calling Ethan a faggot in front of other classmates. At that point Ethan jumped up and started hitting the kid with his bike helmet. The teacher tried to break it up. Ethan walked out of the classroom and left for home. He was extremely upset when he got home. He was distraught about the incident. The kid was not hurt at all. Ethan was suspended. We know of no discipline for the other kid who had been throwing rocks and verbally bullying Ethan.

When we went to school to challenge the suspension (or at least reduce the length of the suspension), Crespillo refused our requests and referred us to the principal. After talking with us for a few minutes, the principal said he would call Michael with his decision later in the day. He called Michael an hour later to give his decision. He said he was recommending expulsion. Several hours later Crespillo called Michael to say the principal was rescinding his recommendation because the Special Ed staff had informed him such action was illegal. This is a striking level of unconcern from the principal of a school which houses Independent Living facilities for physically and developmentally disable students. This may also explain why Rio provides a separate prom for disabled students.

In fact, last year when I talked to Mrs. Crespillo in her office about the verbal bullying, she said there was no rule against it. On the wall next to her desk was a poster stating such behavior was not allowed and giving a legal citation for the offense.

There was only one occasion where we knew of someone who had bullied Ethan being disciplined. The extent of the discipline was that he came up to Ethan and mumbled, “I’m sorry.” And walked away. It was a meaningless trivial consequence that made Ethan feel demeaned and foolish for his efforts to address his tormentors in keeping with the school’s professed rules.

An IEP was convened after the incident in the English class. The goal for the school was to have Ethan removed to another school. We absolutely refused their request to put Ethan in a SED classroom at Mira Loma HS. Ethan’s academic functioning is incompatible with placement at Mira Loma, a much lower performing school with the exception of the International Baccalaureate program. And despite all these taunts and anxiety going to school, Ethan wants to attend his neighborhood HS. (When we broached the idea of Ethan entering the Mira Loma IB program at an IEP when he was entering 9th grade, we were given a clear signal from the SJUSD administration that the IB program would fight to keep him out.) In addition, Mira Loma has a more difficult to control general population and Ethan would have been in more immediate physical danger. Finally, the stigma of an SED classroom would have been devastating for Ethan, who, as everyone knows is exceptionally bright. The recommendation to Mira Loma, however, would be a convenient way for Rio to be rid of him, and the school district was willing to go along with it. In an SED classroom Ethan would not be heard from again. The Special Ed people at the meeting then requested we consent to a functional behavior analysis. This is a very expensive, highly specialized observational review of behavior. We were concerned regarding the motivation for this request. Wary who would do it and how they would use their findings. A challenge by any independent professionals would be very expensive and hard to obtain due to lack of practitioners. And most important, Ethan would feel quite victimized being singled out for this intensive observation throughout all his school activities. And the continued track record with the school was to look for a way to get rid of him rather than deal with the issues affecting his successful performance at the school.

At this IEP meeting we talked about how much bullying had gone on and how much this had hurt Ethan. The principal replied that Ethan had hurt more people at Rio than Rio had hurt him. I defy any professional staff at Rio to support this statement. Almost nothing has ever been done regarding the bullies, the altercations never resulted in others getting hurt or even being significantly upset. However, Ethan has had his whole life ruined to date by this bullying, ridiculing, and taunting. Hollingsworth’s opening statement at this meeting was that he had 1800 students at Rio and no one acted like Ethan, talked like Ethan, had interests like Ethan and therefore Ethan didn’t belong at Rio. This statement was unchallenged by the Special Ed staff at the meeting. One of them, Shelly Ellinghaus, I know has at least one child at Rio and I contend this is a conflict of interest regarding any challenges to the principal’s recommendations.

Before Ethan was permitted to return to school the day before the IEP took place, the school insisted we agree to have a aide accompany Ethan. We agreed to have an aide in the English classroom and to shadow him at a distance outside of the class. The English teacher, Ms Mason, was not, contrary to the administration’s statements prior to the IEP, afraid of Ethan, but she was concerned that some of the students might feel uncomfortable with Ethan. At this IEP, the school recognized that a major part of the aide’s assignment was also to intervene in any taunting or bullying of Ethan. For the next month things worked extraordinarily well with the aide in place. For this month, Ethan was almost completely unbothered and could walk about the campus and interact with friends and acquaintances without being bullied and ridiculed. At the next IEP, 4 weeks later, even Hollingsworth admitted things were going well and dropped the need for any functional assessment.

But a day later the verbal taunts started again, on an afternoon when the aide, for the first time, was not available to Ethan. We still don’t know what had occurred to leave Ethan unobserved for this brief period or why the aide was not there to intervene. On that day, Ethan had had been talking to a friendly acquaintance regarding his upsetting experience the previous Spring with the search, when a student who had taunted Ethan in the past, overheard their conversation and mocked him about the rumor and claimed that it was true. A minor altercation ensued, in which no one was injured which was largely pushing, but Ethan was sent to Crespillo’s office where once again he felt victimized and defenseless. While sitting in the office, Ethan was understandably upset, and said, “I wish I were dead”. In fact, Ethan has been well known to say things like this when upset, and this has been addressed throughout Ethan school career at IEPs. However, a Deputy Cleeg who was in the office area ovrerheard Ethan and decided that this meant Ethan should be brought to the Mental Health Department for a 72-hour confinement. There is no information that Mrs. Crespillo intervened in any way to inform the Deputy that Ethan was a special ed student or that he was well known to say this when feeling upset by circumstances. Somehow, however, this Deputy took it on itself to become involved and Ethan was taken to the Stockton Blvd. Mental Health facility. The other student involved in the exchange was unhurt. He received a glancing blow from Ethan. We have no further information to confirm Deputy Cleeg knew Ethan was a special ed student and was known to say this when upset. In addition, there was no history that day or days prior to this that Ethan was depressed or suicidal. The Deputy called my husband at work to tell him he was bringing Ethan to the Mental Health facility and hung up on my husband while my husband was trying to explain that Ethan is not depressed. Deputy Cleeg hung up when Michael told him “I’m his father, I’m a physician, he’s not depressed”. Ethan was brought to the Mental Health facility but was released later that day when the nature of the incident was revealed. In fact, the administrator at the Mental Health facility told my husband over the phone that this transfer on a 72 hour hold was completely inappropriate and suggested reporting to the Sheriffs office. However, he cautioned that reporting would likely bring retaliation onto Ethan. We held off on any reporting.

The following Monday, Ethan was back in school, for his limited school onsite program (just 2 classes). The week went without incident. At the end of the week, on Friday afternoon, Ethan had an appointment with the guidance counselor to discuss his SAT scores and future program. Ethan had scored 690 on verbal and 650 on math. The guidance counselor was very late, and Ethan decided to leave for home on foot. I continued to stay to wait to have college forms signed by the counselor.

At about 2:10 pm, Mrs. Brownfield was available to be seen. We discussd that Ethan had walked off, both acknowledging his frustration with the delay. We discussed Ethan’s fine scores on the SAT, and that the more mature environment of a university and a satisfying career would be more tolerable circumstances for Ethan and that the goal was to help him reach those situations. The phone rang; it was Mrs. Crespillo. She told Mrs. Brownfield that Ethan had hit another student and had threatened to kill him. Crespillo wanted to get Ethan to walk with her back to Mrs. Brownfield’s office. She was notifying Brownfield that she was attempting to do this. Mrs. Brownfield told her that I was there and to let Ethan know I was waiting for him there. Mrs. Crespillo called back to say Ethan was not coming to Brownfield’s office with her and they were outside the administration building and that I should walk over there immediately.

When I got near the administration building I saw Ethan, uniformed officers and assorted school personnel. Someone led me to go into the office; inside the deputy ‘s office, the female office said they were going to arrest Ethan for making terroristic threats because he had said “I’m going to kill you if you do that again.”, to a student with whom he had just had a altercation. Apparently, he had tripped the kid and grabbed him by the neck. The kid had broken loose and skipped away laughing and unhurt. This student had seen Ethan walking across campus to leave and began taunting him regarding Ethan’s sexual orientation in front tof 2 girls accompanying him at the time. This action and arrest was a profound overreaction on the part of the deputy. I said I would take him home. Ethan was obviously experiencing distress at the continuing taunting at Rio and the best way to deal with it was to leave the school. I told the female deputy I was taking Ethan home at which point, Deputy Cleeg entered, folded his arms across his chest and informed me very loudly that he was arresting Ethan for a felony for assaulting and threatening a student. Cleeg had entered with Crespillo. I repeated that he wasn’t going to kill anyone and that I would take him home immediately. Clegg said he was taking him to Juvenile Hall. I said Ethan is sick and needs health care. Clegg said loudly ”He needs mental health care” I said, “he doesn’t need to be in juvenile hall, he needs health care “ Mrs. Crespillo said nothing to support my statements that Ethan has a disability, despite the fact she has known in detail about Ethan’s disability issues for over a year. She had heard these discussed in detail at IEPs and in meetings with Michael and me. She said nothing tp support my statements about Ethan’s mental health and the types of statementys he makes inder severe stress. I asked Cleeg if he was the person who sent Ethan to Mental Health the week before. He said Yes. He said very angrily that he had spoken to my husband at that time and that my husband was angry. He said this all very angrily. Clegg had in fact hung up on Michael at that time. Clegg said to stay out of the way or I’ll arrest you too.

Of course, I was no physicalthreat to them nor could I stop these people. From the moment I saw Cleeg I noted his angry attitude and knowing that he had been involved in the incident the week before, I was immediately concerned he would use excessive force. I followed them around as they tried to handcuff Ethan because I was afraid Ethan would be hurt. They all (Ethan and the deputies went into Crespillo’s office. Then the three officers tackled Ethan to put the handcuffs on. Then the three officers were on top of Ethan on the floor. Ethan was on the floor between a metal desk and the wall. Clegg was on top of him. Ethan began to cry out “You’re breaking my arm” I pushed past the female officer and I looked down. Ethan’s arm was dark purple. I stumbled back as they shifted on the floor. Cleeg yelled at me”Don’t get my shoes dirty.” The large sergeant threw me face first into the wall. And said he was arresting me for interfering with the officers. I squirmed because he was pushing my face into the face into the wall so hard my glasses were twisting out of shape and were about to break. He twisted my arm very hard and handcuffed me, I think he also put some other restraint on my left arm. He said ” I knew I was going to arrest you.”. Ethan was handcuffed and taken out of the room. I was put into a chair in Crespillo’s office with my arms behind me. The sergeant asked me my first name. He asked numerous times what medications I was taking and was I seeing a counselor. He sat down opposite me, looked through my purse and found my drivers license. He asked my addresss, phone number. I did not see Ethan again or Cleeg until later when the sergeant told me that Ethan had been taken away in the car to Juvenile hall. At that time Clegg and the female entered the room. After promising the sergeant that I would appear at court on 12/7 I was un-handcuffed and told I could leave.


Shitty high school or what, I don't know. I stand by my contention as to the central cause of bullying.

The reason I despise my parents in spite of all this is that I read into their decision to try to have a dialogue with these people rather than unequivocally pulling out or fighting no-holds-barred as folly and cowardice...and the "disability" crap as them blaming me for the world's inherent unfairness.

Re-reading this (I actually haven't looked at it in years) it really does explain why I became the cynical, wary, grim and aloof person I am today. And strange as it may sound, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I never for a moment lose sight of my ultimate intention to pay back those who did me wrong many times over. Not that I'm still sad or angry - I see the matter as simply a debt that must be collected. With interest.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:07 am  
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Get Off My Lawn!
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Criticism =/= Bullying.

I know how old this sounds (I walked 10 miles to school in the snow..UPHILL BOTH WAYS!), but public education systems are creating a bunch of pussies who don't know how to manage conflict, defend themselves or compete. Got a problem? Find someone to handle it for you. When I was in school, kids worked it out between themselves. Sometimes, that meant *gasp* fighting. Sometimes, that meant avoiding that badass who fucked with you every time they were near you. If you complained of being bullied, administrators would advise you to stay away from that kid. They might talk to him, too. That almost guaranteed retribution. If a girl complained that other girls were being mean, she'd be told to tell them to shove it. Responsibility for your well-being was mostly placed on YOU. And fighting wasn't an automatic suspension or expulsion. It was something that happened with kids. Hell, our basketball coach would stop all activity in the gym, gather a crowd and pit two guys against each other in the center circle if those guys appeared to be getting ready to fight. "You two want to fight? Then fight!"

Maybe you agree that fighting should not be tolerated, and while I agree that fighting should not be condoned, I think fighting is necessary (hockey = life). We all love stories about bullies who pushed someone too far and got their asses kicked. That used to happen sometimes. There were a lot of kids who got picked on. But it was all a dress rehearsal on how to negotiate life in a hard world. When you try to regulate every aspect of conflict between school kids, you don't stop bullying, you only force the bullies to be more creative and subtle. You also take away the right of the bullied to truly defend themselves. And, you teach them to depend on others to solve their problems.

I know anecdotes are frowned upon here, but from incidents from my life:

10 years old: Me and Bobby (lived around the corner) played together a lot, but we always seemed to end up fighting, and I always won...until the last time. Bobby had had enough and hit me in the back of the head with a baseball bat. Massive concussion and fractured skull. We never spoke to each other again, and thereafter, I only fought if I had to. Lesson learned: Just because you can beat someone up doesn't mean they'll keep letting it happen.

13 years old: Troy was a mean kid who gave me some minor shit from time to time. Troy heard me talking to my friend Alex. Alex was being picked on (we didn't call it bullying) by a couple of kids. I mentioned that I didn't like to fight but that I could if I had to, and maybe Alex needed to take up for himself. After that class, Troy decided it would be a good time to call me out on what he heard me say. I turned my back on him. He thumped my head, then my ear. I hit him squarely in the mouth and knocked him down. He bled. I went to class. He and his very fat lip sat with me at lunch that day and we never had another problem. Lesson learned: Sometimes you just have to punch some fucker in the mouth.

14 years old: I was flirting with a cute girl named Cindy. We were at a JV football game. Cindy walked by and I gave a little punch on her arm. She acted like I broke it (kidding around). A retarded kid name Tim who went to our school thought I was picking on Cindy. He grabbed me from behind in a bear hug, lifting my feet off the ground. He was so strong I felt I might pass out. He was shaking me like a rag doll and telling me I shouldn't hurt Cindy. If Cindy had not come to my rescue, I don't know how this would have played out. Lesson learned: You have to consider how your actions toward others might be interpreted by third parties who might be willing/able to defend your target.

15 years old: Kelly didn't like it that a girl he wanted to date preferred me over him. Egged on by his football buddies, he challenged me about it in the Commons Area before school. He threatened to beat me up. A lot of people were watching. I stood up, put my books down, and told him that I knew he could kick my ass but that I would not make it easy. He cursed and postured, but never threw a punch (I was so glad) when he realized that beating me bloody would also gain him a few bruises, but still wouldn't get him the girl (my wife, btw). Lesson learned: Sometimes, you have to show someone that you are not afraid of what they might do.

16 years old: Randy was drunk at the Straw Hat Pizza restaurant after a Friday night football game. I made the mistake of trying to leave at the same time as Randy. Randy was a big, tough, scary guy. He punched me on the side of my head, and ordered me to leave (ignoring the obvious fact that I was already leaving). Bells ringing, I left. I avoided Randy for the next few days, then I sent a couple of mutual friends to talk with Randy to make sure we were cool. He said he didn't remember hitting me and thought it was all really funny. Lesson learned: Sometimes you have to GTFO because the threat is real.

I know this seems like a lot of stuff, but really this was something here and there for me. I was happy, and all of this was normal growing up stuff.

Nowadays, who knows what would have happened to Bobby for almost killing me? Then? Nothing happened. We were two boys fighting. I spent a night in the hospital. Our parents told us to stay away from each other. We did. Troy and I would have been suspended/expelled for our scuffle instead of establishing the boundaries of our friendship. Tim and I likely would have been suspended/expelled instead of me and Cindy sitting down with Tim to try to explain we were flirting. Kelly and I didn't fight, but our near fight probably would have warranted a suspension of some kind instead of a grudging respectful acquaintance from a distance thing. And, Randy? Today, I might have been encouraged to talk with a counselor who might have called Randy in to discuss his underage drinking with authorities. Then Randy would have really wanted to get after me. None of these suspensions, or involvement of adults needed to happen. We handled things ourselves.

I know that there are situations where victims simply have no other course of action except to seek help, and they should. All too often, however, the "help" mechanisms are inadequate, uninformed, and/or incapable, leaving the victims worse off. These mechanisms also convince a lot a attention-hungry kids that claiming to be the victim of bullies is a way to instant attention and instant retribution on enemies. The pendulum has swung WAY out of balance in the wrong direction. Left alone, most kids would figure it out on their own, and be a lot more prepared for life.


Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension
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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:52 am  
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There was bullying at my high school. At least until that kid freaked and threw a chair through a chandelier during a party. Pretty hilarious.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:13 am  
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Ethan, very serious question. Was your IEP for Asperger's? It made me sad to read.

That lady isn't being bullied. She is being criticized. Bullying is usually much more extensive and systematic. And yes, women are awful to each other. Awful.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:36 am  
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Man, and I thought my bullying was crappy. Though you are happy with the outcome, I'm sorry you had to go through it.

If I were your parents I would have tried to find a different school for you. Judging by your SAT scores etc..perhaps a private school for gifted students would have been a better fit. I also am a fan of single sex education in the later years...as I feel the competition for women increases bullying and is harmful to the academic performance of all.

I know I was bullied for a number of things (chiefly, being poor) up through 8th grade. That's one major reason I decided to leave the school and live with my father in Ohio.

I enrolled at a Catholic all-boys school and aside from a few minor confrontations with someone being a douche was never bullied again. My entire group of friends were all the "nerds" at their middle schools, as was most everyone at my high school. Scholastic achievement was stressed. Being "cool" and ostracizing others was not. With no women...popularity just didn't exist. I also learned sarcasm - this enabled me to go toe to toe with anyone verbally. It was a skill I didn't learn until being surrounded by elitist assholes.

Our society rewards brawn over brains in youth. The cool athletic kids will always be the cool athletic kids. The thing is, I now own a business and have achieved more than they ever could. You will too, Aestu.


It's funny, the other day I was looking at one of my former bullies on facebook. He had once tackled me on the bus and spit in my hair because I dared to talk to his girlfriend. Well, he recently had a girl break an engagement off with him, and he currently works at CVS, and was passed over for a management promotion (he was raging about this on facebook)

Maybe he won middle school...but I won life. Is it bad that it makes me feel so good?


Azelma

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 Post subject: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:32 pm  
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Boredalt for prez. There has to be a middle ground somewhere. You can't let kids run around beating the shit out of each other (especially in the school shootings era) but at the same time, Boredalt makes some extremely valid points.

In 4th grade, I got suspended for 3 days + charged with Assault / Battery (yeah, 4th grade...that wasn't a typo) which were later dropped. My parents told the kids parents they'd move out of the neighborhood if they would drop charges.

It was a kid who was a year older than me and fucking huge. He had at least a foot and a half on me. He was one of the biggest guys at school, and lived about 3 houses over. He was the sort of stupid minion lieutenant for this other kid that I could never take, 2 years older and not quite as large, but a good fighter regardless. The kid I beat up tended to follow this other kid around like a puppy and did whatever stupid shit the guy said.

One incident involved Dumb and Dumber flinging yogurt at the side of the first kids house. They covered the siding with yogurt and then blamed me. Of course their parents are both retarded 'my child would never do that' types. So they confronted my parents, who asked me if I did it. I denied it adamantly in front of both kids and both sets of parents. The charismatic kid sat there smirking while I was being accused by first kids parents. Nobody believed me and I felt helpless and alone. I started crying and said 'you gotta believe me I'm telling you the truth' until the tall kid spoke up and fessed up. If be hadn't, I dunno how that would have played out.

So that's the reason I kicked his ass at school one day at about 3:45 pm after classes. I confronted him in the foyer and he ended up going to the hospital with a broken hand, a black eye, bloody nose and a busted lip. I was unscratched. Nobody really fucked with me after that for the rest of elementary school.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:03 pm  
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I see the matter as simply a debt that must be collected. With interest.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:13 pm  
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I agree with Boredalt. That shit builds character.

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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:16 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Everyone has problems. Everyone is different.


False. A lot of people live idyllic lives (i.e., sheltered), and a lot of people have a total absence of individuality.

I don't think there's anything idyllic about living a sheltered life.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Actually, bullying graviates towards people who either A) Draw attention to themselves and are seen as a threat to another person's status B) The people who do stand up for themselves. I can't really recall any bullys who bullied people more than once or twice if they didn't defend themselves. It was always the ones who got upset or tried defending themselves.

It's just like ganking people in WoW. Not many people will sit there and gank a lowbie over and over again for no reason. No one even wants to watch that. However, if you have the illusion of a challenge, whether it's real or not, said person will continue trying to gank/bully whether for his/her own delight or in looking for acceptance from those around themselves.


That is why bullying, and the ways schools handle it, is a social evil. It teaches people to be pussies.

This is possible.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
I personally believe that the basis for a desire to change should be because you want to be healthy or generally better. Not because you feel bad. I'm not saying that it can't motivate you but you should strive to improve yourself everyday, not just when you feel bad or get hurt.


Be better, or be able to make the argument you are better? Why do the former if the latter is easier?

That's what this is all about. Worthless women who subscribe to a dogma that tells them they ARE better and therefore don't need to be.

Making an argument that you are better if you aren't doesn't make you better. Plain and simple.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
I haven't really delved into the world of obesity being genetic/etc vs a choice but I'm sure not everyone chooses to be obese just like some people DO choose to be obese. If being overweight is a moral fault than so is being underweight. It's that simple. I'd argue that being 50 pounds overweight is better than being 50 pounds under.


The number of people who are congenitally fat is very small. Not for nothing is obesity a contemporary Western problem and particularly bad in America. The fat person who eats a well-balanced diet does exist but they are the extreme minority, proof being in communities where that is the rule they are rare.

Being obese is a moral fault because it's the result of gluttony and a lack of basic self-respect. To be obese makes one lazy and slovenly. To be obese is to be burden on oneself and everyone around. One need not be a chiseled figure but to be grotesque impaired in daily life because one cannot control ones drives is as sick as being a compulsive gambler, womanizer, or drug addict. It's a bad condition, and guilt and social pressure exist to encourage people to do better.

The fact that being severely underweight is also wrong doesn't diminish the perversity that is obesity - nor the fact that one is a serious social problem and the other is not.

Can't really argue with this.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
As someone who was bullied in Elementary, Middle School and High School I can tell you that the claim that being overweight is a source of wrongful bullying is true if only partially. In reality, most bullying is against kids that are different (fat, glasses, acne, wheelchair, etc). Unless you want to tell me that there are no fat kids out there who have been made fun of for the sole reason that they're fat.


I'm sure there's such a kid somewhere. But really none of the things you listed are ever the cause of bullying except insofar as they make the kid different.

This show is not about being tolerant of people who are different, or stopping bullying thereof, it's about aggrandizing a certain very narrow group of people (fat white women) who have good reason to feel bad about themselves - and who are already treated far better by society than they deserve.

I was such a kid.

I see the point you are trying to make now. That, if someone is fat, they are made fun because fat isn't the norm (aka different). As a result it appears as though they are being picked on for being fat when it is really that they are different. Flip the script and put a skinny kid in a room full of fatties, the fat kid is no longer different and is no longer made fun of or possibly even the skinny kid is made fun of because he is now different. Is that what you're trying to say?

I don't think it's our place to make these people feel bad about being overweight. I think you can choose not to associate with them or even like them but I think it should be done in a way that is going to have the least impact on their feelings. If you constantly tell a fat person that they're a "fat fat fatty fat fat" and they do change, 90% of the time it's not going to be because you've somehow made a better more health concious person but because you've created yet another person who falls in line with everyone else. They'll relate the positive words/interactions with other people as a result of their conforming and be further inclined to do what other people tell them to do (good, bad or otherwise) in the future.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
I will mostly agree with your statement about the media. I don't however think that it is the ultimate cause of "all" bullying. I think human nature is. Bullying happens everywhere, not just in places that are chocked full of "media".


Greed, murder, demagoguery, ignorance, bigotry, thuggery, infidelity, happen everywhere, with or without media. That those human evils are universal does not change the reality that the media has done much to foster them to gross excess here in America.

That I can agree with.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
I honestly don't even know who Rush Limbaugh is or why he's relevant. I have heard of him though.


He's a disgustingly fat far-right wing shock jock. A lot of what he says and writes betrays personal issues and sexual frustration driven by his figure. People take digs at him all the time.

Okay.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Moving right along, had a man given this same "schtick" I would feel the same. I don't know that a man (let alone many other women) could handle it as well as she did. She didn't come out guns blazing nor did she cower and hide. She voiced how she felt as objectively as I think she could have. The only thing I didn't approve of were the few times you could hear the pain in hear voice but I disregarded that...

...I must have missed the part where she said "I'm fat and I'm proud and I make no effort to improve myself.". My mistake. The way you start this statement sounds overly biased with regards to your views on feminists and women in general.


She didn't handle it well at all. She bitched on TV about how hurtful it was to be told something she doesn't like to hear. To deal with it would be to just move on with one's life...or to find the strength to better her condition.

Men deal with crap every day of their lives. That is why they are men. They don't get to stand there and say don't be mean to me. To say that a man couldn't handle as well as she did is to turn reality on its head.

lol'd

Without knowing more of the details of the incident or of the person in question, I can not factually continue this line of discussion.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
I feel as if this video hit a sore spot with you. Your words got porgressively more negative and brazen. Almost as if the more you thought about it the angrier you got. I can safely tell you that when you think of something with negative connotations that harder it is to objectively discuss that same thing.


Your observation is completely correct. And there is nothing wrong with being angry or negative. To characterize something as negative does not mean that the characterization is not objective, and to be angry about something for good reason is neither irrational nor pointless. Jubber is right on when he says the disdain for anger and negativity is the "Pussification of America".

Fair enough.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Now then, all that being said, I feel like the initial letter she recieved was nothing more than a well played troll or at the very least the person who wrote it wasn't truly trying to bully or sound condescending.


I'm not convinced the alleged letter was even real, any more than the alleged Romney leak.

The media is entertainment, and entertainment is all about showmanship. To think that anything that appears on TV is as it seems is as fool as thinking that anything that happens at a magic show is because they're exactly the same thing, staged entertainment.

Oh I agree. That's the otherside of the "trolling" arguement. The letter was just too...for lack of a better word "plain". It's possible it's real but it's suspect.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
The main thing to take from all this is not to let bullying define you or rule your life. To teach your kids and/or those around you to treat others better. I personally don't care because it has no impact on me but you're somewhat one of the people she was talking about.


If you are crying on TV that someone said something unkind then you have already lost.

It depends. If the letter was real, then no one really won but the person who wrote it lost. If it was a troll, then they all lost while the troll won. If she wrote it and staged the whole thing then right now she is #winning.

That being said I still think there is a positive message to be taken from the whole thing.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Imagine you had a son and you're sitting there talking about "fat, lazy, disgusting, entitled, self-obsessed women", A) What would your son take from that? Nothing positive I assure you and B) Maybe you're right. Perhaps though, maybe it isn't ALL women. Your son isn't going to necessarily have the skills to distinguish those who truly are "fat, lazy, disgusting, entitled or self-obsessed" from those who truly are trying or have other reasons for why they are the way they are. Your son would simply see another fat person without looking deeper than that.


Why son? How about daughter?

You see, your thought processes are being manipulated without your even realizing it. The implication of what you say is that daughters are virtuous by default but sons grow towards any darkness.

What skills are we talking about? Orwellian self-monitoring of thoughts? Although you do not realize it that is exactly what you mean and it's the same game, whether it's watching brainwashed people like Jubber or Eturnal invent rationalizations to justify their brainwashing, or the radical left-wing equivalent of PC unto unreality.

If I called the military a bunch of self-interested, self-righteous, bigoted, anti-democratic, America-hating thugs, would you consider that an assault on all men? Then why consider similar remarks that apply to a group of women an assault on all women?

As with Jubber and Eturnal, you're resorting to nihilism to justify the unjustifiable. These people are despicable human beings and it's not in spite of "trying" or for any "other reason" (what does that even mean? sumo wrestling?) that they engage in the selfish and passive-aggressive behavior that they do.

Actually, I almost went with saying son/daughter and with man/woman but decided against it to stick as close to the point as I could. You addressed a woman and I didn't want to put words in your mouth and you're a male so I gave you a male child. Plus, boys are more likely to imitate their fathers than a girl. However, I'm sure had I done that you would have found a problem with that as well.

I never said that daughters are virtueous by any means nor that sons grow towards any darkness. The fact that you pulled that out of thin air instead of the many other "implications" you could have choosen tells me that maybe you're the one who truly feels that way. You didn't deny it and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Actually, it's quite possible that you feel the opposite. That boys are virtueous and that girls are the ones who grow towards evil. Maybe as a result of how you view your childhood and women/feminist in general. Who knows.

Skills I'm talking about are basic skills you develop as you get older. A small boy sees a fat guy. To the small boy, he's just a fat guy. A man sees a fat guy. To the man, the fat guy might have some sort of medical problem or the man might peer deeper than just the initial glance to look for answers before realizing "Nope, just some fat guy,".

I didn't mean to imply "ALL women". I meant "ALL women your perceive as fat/lazy/etc". Hopefully that clarifys that.

Quote:
Necrachilles wrote:
tldr: She's handsome.


Objectively, she is NOT handsome. She's a fat disgusting bitch and the only person being bullied here is you. Your low self esteem is being exploited through social pressure and guilt-tripping to turn reality on its head.

Rofl. I wanted a tldr that didn't make sense so I went with says she's handsome because I find it funny to call girls handsome and watch how they react.

Whether she's fat, disgusting or a bitch remains to be seen and is like...your opinion, man. I'm actually not being bullied. Low self esteem I may have, hard to say really. There isn't any social pressure or guilt-tripping. I didn't watch this and go "aweee" I just watched and was like "That's interesting. Maybe that is the reality being "turned on it's head" ;]

As I already said, there were things in the story I didn't like but that I still took from it some positives.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:20 pm  
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@ Brawl, Dotz, and Jubber.

Yes.


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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:37 pm  
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Battletard wrote:
One incident involved Dumb and Dumber flinging yogurt at the side of the first kids house. They covered the siding with yogurt and then blamed me. Of course their parents are both retarded 'my child would never do that' types. So they confronted my parents, who asked me if I did it. I denied it adamantly in front of both kids and both sets of parents. The charismatic kid sat there smirking while I was being accused by first kids parents. Nobody believed me and I felt helpless and alone. I started crying and said 'you gotta believe me I'm telling you the truth' until the tall kid spoke up and fessed up. If be hadn't, I dunno how that would have played out.

So that's the reason I kicked his ass at school one day at about 3:45 pm after classes. I confronted him in the foyer and he ended up going to the hospital with a broken hand, a black eye, bloody nose and a busted lip. I was unscratched. Nobody really fucked with me after that for the rest of elementary school.


I'm curious, in hindsight do you think you overreacted a bit? Do you think violence was necessary?

I mean...I get it, they flung yogurt on a house and acted like little shits trying to pin it on you...but is that just cause to break someone's hand / give them black eyes etc? I guess you were in fourth grade though...I'm just wondering if in hindsight you feel the punishment was a bit extreme.

Full disclosure, I don't know if they physically intimidated you or something in other stories since the only incident you refer to is the yogurt thing. Perhaps that was the breaking point?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:08 pm  
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Boredalt wrote:
I know how old this sounds (I walked 10 miles to school in the snow..UPHILL BOTH WAYS!), but public education systems are creating a bunch of pussies who don't know how to manage conflict, defend themselves or compete. Got a problem? Find someone to handle it for you. When I was in school, kids worked it out between themselves.


You don't know what you're talking about.

For one thing, kids in your time never actually "worked it out amongst themselves". You may have thought they did, but they didn't, because adults were always there to give guidance and to put a cap on escalation.

"Defend themselves" is a cute phrase that really means "being a thug is cool". If one kid has 40 pounds on the other then the former cannot be expected to defend himself (although he will have an undue temptation to even the odds by pulling a knife or gun). In reality this belief is held by people who basically believe in the glorification of violence and it is THAT VERY ATTITUDE which has contributed to the mess we have today. After all, that is why personal firearms are legal, no? To even the odds? How do you remove that variable without passing every kid through a metal detector and having armed police on campus?

There are other elements of the equation you conveniently exclude. One is the reality of coed education and the sexual revolution. Can girls be expected to "defend themselves"? How do you even the odds (and outcomes) given naturally different social expectations for girls? The answer is you really can't. I don't have a good answer here.

There is also the serious problem of overcrowding on many high school campuses. It's no coincidence that cultures with high population density are less confrontational. "Defend yourself" or "work it out" doesn't work so well when you have high schools as dense as downtown Tokyo. Next thing you know you have stampedes and riots, just like in stadiums where this same strat is implemented under similar conditions.

High schools today are much more chaotic and unsupervised in your time. Administrators are less, not more, interested in student issues. Bullying is a result of that, not the other way around. Morals are taught by authority figures, not worked out by kids. Everyone in this country wants to think they're a self-made original no matter what and that is why we have the mess we do now.

Jubbergun wrote:
I agree with Boredalt. That shit builds character.


I can tell you it doesn't. It teaches bullies they can get away with it, rewards pussies, and enforces screwed-up outcomes. Life is not fair and pretending that it is - that things will somehow work themselves out - is just lazy.

The reason school exists is to teach character, and as with so many other things in American society, people just deny the validity of whatever they cbf thinking about.

The only people who disagree are Al Bundy types who felt that high school was the best time of their lives.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:13 pm  
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Callysta wrote:
Ethan, very serious question. Was your IEP for Asperger's? It made me sad to read.


I meet scum like you all the time in the educational system.

You give a lot of psychobabble but what you really mean is that you prefer to lay blame rather than do your necessarily difficult job of teaching kids how to behave, and you prefer to engage in narcissism and petty hobnobbing rather than question the world you live in, and assign labels to anyone who sees things differently.

The fact you hide behind a label and pretend it's not exactly what it is, a way of laying blame and a shill for your own selfishness, does nothing to disguise the shallow and petty nature of your motives. Ofc you're sad at all the right times; people would think badly of you if you weren't. Does that "sadness" drive you to productive action or to take the easiest way out you can find - blame the victim by other means?

You pretend to care about children but in reality it is vain and selfish people like you who are selling out their future for your own gratification in the here and now.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: I don't have a big enough yes for this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:26 pm  
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Do you think it's possible that you're emotionally comprimised right now? I mean, I could be wrong but your words appear to be laced with anger. I feel like maybe you're lashing out too harshly at those who are merely offering discussion or questions. You don't have to agree with them but I think you're going a little far in your vendetta.


Edit: I just ask out of curiosity. I'm sure you mean no harm. Just that it could easily be percieved as thus. =/


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