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Such lenses are self-imposed regardless.

Pretty sure that something like 45% of that whole "undecided" group couldn't name the vice president. The idea that there's this large group of people who deeply research every individual stance that each candidate has and puts hours into deciding who earns their vote is complete horeshit (SPOILER: Not like they can, because its not like Romney's giving any specifics to what programs he'll cut when he's in office and he's flip-flopped on everything he was saying as a part of this turnaround he's been doing the past couple days to appeal to the center).

Especially with politics becoming more and more tribal in this day and age, I'd be willing to throw money down that a good 90% of the country knew who they were going to vote for when Romney got the nom (this includes the independent voters, by the way).

These "undecided" voters aren't some sort of magical unicorn, they're too busy watching reality tv to give a fuck and they should be referred to as such.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

What Mayo said. I love you in a just friends kinda way for that last paragraph btw.

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

How favorably the FUBU dialogue - on all sides - compares to mainstream America is less a measure of its greatness and more a commentary on how sad and pathetic the rest of the world is.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

My signature is fucking hilarious.

So how 'bout that Biden?

Looked very, very immature with his performance.

My status on facebook:
"The guy who I agree with kicked ass at the debate. The guy who I didn't agree with would've done better if he wasn't such a fucking idiot."

That being said, I found out that these exist, so guess what I just pissed $10 on?

EDIT: Did Ryan start spewing a stream of blatant lies while Biden argued with himself? I figured that's how the debate would've gone and I got home just in time to see how ugly the moderator was.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

I am incredibly surprised and shocked that Eturnal thought Biden lost.

Ryan held his own I'll say...but he really looks like a douche.

Again, Americans were the only losers here.

I thought it was a very rude and uncivilized debate. They were interupting each other so much(moderator included) that it was hard for anyone to get in any points during the midpoint of the debate. Early and later on it was more civil, but still, disgraceful on both ends.

What little I saw of Vice President Biden v. Congressman Ryan, which I'm watching the end of a rerun of now, I think VP Biden did better. Not because Congressman Ryan did poorly (he didn't), but because he's more likable and blue-collar. VP Biden's remarks seemed less scripted and more off-the-cuff, while Congressman Ryan was all about numbers and his answers were more like talking-points. To be fair, I didn't think Congressman Ryan would do as well as he did, just because VP Biden has more experience in these forums.

I didn't care for the moderator.

If I had been Congressman Ryan when Biden complained about getting less 'talk time,' I'd have asked that he be given all the time he wanted. VP Biden has, as I'm sure everyone is well aware, a bad habit of sticking his foot in his mouth, offer him the rope to see if he hangs himself.

Congressman Ryan shouldn't smile. He looks smug when he does it. Optics count. By the same token, VP Biden's smirk wasn't winning him points, either, and I wasn't the only one that noticed it based on what 'post-game' commentators are saying. Oh, and that "my friend" bullshit VP Biden kept doing...you don't refer to people who are actually your friends that way. He should have stuck with "Rep./Congressman Ryan," or being Joe Biden he probably could even have gotten away with "Paul," which I doubt Congressman Ryan would have objected to in any way. It really took away from VP Biden's big advantage: likability.

I'd say it's either a draw or a (very weak) win for VP Biden.

Your Pal,
Jubber

EDIT: Just flipped over to MSNBC to see Chris Matthews spend three minutes making excuses for VP Biden's smirks and such. I'm amending and saying this was a draw...I don't think 'undecideds' are going to be turned on by the Joe Biden that showed up tonight.

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I didn't watch the debate.

I tend to trust people like Joe Biden and Howard Dean because they are willing to say what's on their mind, even if it's unpolitic. A "rude" debate, to me, is a more honest debate than one with Obama and Romney smiling insincerely and dispassionately at each other, treating the contest as mere trivia.

If we are to think that political issues are important then certainly the candidates should take them seriously, and if the candidates take them seriously then there should be honesty and pathos to what they say. Neither Obama nor Romney gives off that jive.

Real people are not picture-perfect, and most people of substance, whether they're "successful" or not, look pretty awkward when every mannerism and mole is amplified by the camera and the stage. Insisting on the appearance of perfection in candidates results in only the most superficial being elected, and is a major cause of the decline of our political system and general level of discourse.

If less picture-perfect candidates make it to the stage, I call that a step in the right direction.

That said, this entire thing is trivia. There is no real winning or losing. The debate is pure spectacle and the entire reason we are arguing about superficial nonsense such as how the candidates came off is because the entire spectacle is aimed exclusively at the most superficial of people.

The great irony of the American political system is that we vest ultimate power in a class comprised exclusively of the stupidest, most superficial, and least-informed people in the history of the world.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

I didn't say Biden lost the debate, but he certainly didn't secure a decisive victory, and I can't imagine that he swayed a lot of undecided voters over.

Biden really rubbed me the wrong way. I thought it was incredibly unprofessional and inconsiderate to constantly interrupt Ryan, even as Ryan was answering question Biden directly asked him. People have been saying, "Well, Romney did this to Obama!" Romney and Obama both interrupted each other, as well as the moderator... but, no, Romney didn't act like Biden. The number of interruptions that people are saying Ryan had is 82 from Biden and 34 times from Raddatz... during a 90 minute debate. I don't know how accurate that is, but it sure wouldn't surprise me... especially since Biden wouldn't shut his damn mouth whenever Ryan was saying something. Talking under your breath isn't cute and I'm glad Ryan called Biden out on his behavior.

I thought it was immature for Biden to laugh through the entire debate and his gestures and animations were exaggerated to the point that it was distracting from what he was actually saying. I thought Biden's compassionate tone, which was heavily contrasted against his clown-like appearance, seemed forced and not genuine. Also, I think he attempt to piggy-back of the fame of Bentsen's "You're no Jack Kennedy" comment fell short with me and appeared desperate. Sorry Joe, but you're no Lloyd Bentsen, either.

Biden's attempt to speak directly to the people at home by staring into the camera and saying something like, "You (group) out there... who are you going to believe? These guys or me?" I'm sure that resonated with some people who have been living under a rock for the past four years, but it's hard to believe an administration that, as Ryan pointed out, broke so many of their promises over the years.

Ryan, on the other hand, who smiled, chuckled and interrupted at times, did it with such infrequency... it appeared as if he could maintain his composure and looked infinitely more collected than Biden did... and that's all because he was standing next to Biden on stage. I just got a heavy sense of desperation from Biden. Maybe he was trying to make himself look more alive next to the youth of Ryan? Maybe he forgot to take his medication? Maybe he was trying to just get his name in most headlines coming out of the debate, not on content, but on performance, so it wouldn't be Romney/Ryan dominating headlines for two weeks in a row?

In terms of content, I'd have to say it was a draw. Both candidates backed their positions, contrasted it with their opponents, and made their share of misquotes and lies.

In terms of presentation, I'd have to give the mark to Ryan, for maintaining his composure and looking more presidential than Biden. If Biden conducted himself like he did on stage with Sarah Palin, then I'd say something differently. Hell, even if Biden acted like he did last night with with Sarah Palin, then I would be able to say, "Well, that's Joe being Joe!" But we've seen him have a serious debate several times before, and last night, I didn't see a serious Biden.

I doubt this debate will swing wildly in favor of Obama/Biden like the first presidential debate swung for Romney/Ryan, but I could be wrong.