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http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-23/italian-quake-sentence-to-have-chilling-effect-scientists-say

This man is a judge. Surely, he is making some statement about science and scientists, or something, right? I don't think these guys will ever see the inside of a jail, but this boggles.

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

Holy shit, I thought this would be on the Onion.

Italian law is a joke. This is business as usual there.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Most court systems in Europe today are a joke.

This is undeniable fact.

Most of the EU is fine. Italy is in a class of its own.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

[citation needed]

Italy is its own case. Please elaborate on your general contention.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

I can imagine Scandinavian prisons to be pretty fucking weird when I first heard about them when I was 14.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Czech Republic imprisoned the lead singer of Lamb of God on murder charges for shoving some retard attention whore off the stage during a show. The guy died because he got pushed off for being a fucking idiot. Keep in mind what happened with Dimebag Darrell.

I can see that kind of shit happening in the USA too, though. To be fair...

Brawlsack

Taking an extended hiatus from gaming

So the Czech Republic imprisoned (and released on bail, like you do) someone for manslaughter after a manslaughter occurred?

You don't say.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

I find lawyers to be more corrupt than judges.

But then, that's where we get lawyers from soo....

http://www.transparency.org/news/feature/enis



Academic research paper on the subject:

http://digitalarchive.gsu.edu/cgi/viewc ... nce_theses

Page 20:



Quite a few European countries in the "High" perceived corruption. And several of those are the highest in the "low" area (spain, portugal, italy) with most countries in double digit scores in percentages who responded "Courts" when asked "If you had a magic wand and you could eliminate corruption from one of the following institutions, what would be your first choice?"

Perhaps it's not "most" but a significant portion of European court systems are perceived as quite corrupt.

Anecdotal evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_system_of_Ukraine
http://euobserver.com/justice/117008 (Bulgaria and Romania...two incredibly corrupt euro nations)
http://setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml ... feature-01 - Kosovo

You cite a bunch of links trying to make your silly point look substantial, but even though what you cite is garbage, it completely contradicts your claims - as do the actual facts.

1. The table itself is completely wrong. Check the TI site itself, or the citation on Wikipedia.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

2. Kosovo isn't even a EU member. You might as well compare the US to the Dominican Republic, as they're on our continent as surely as Kosovo is on the EU's.

3. You're comparing the worst of the EU to the whole of the US. Remember that the US and EU are about the same size - 350m citizens vs 500m, $15T GDP vs $17T, 50 states vs 27. Can you really say that courts and other public institutions in Spain or Portugal or Italy are worse than those in Mississippi or Texas or West Virginia?

4. The EU is structurally so different from the US that there is no comparison. The US has massive corruption, waste and nepotism in the corporations and military; the EU doesn't spend nearly as much on the military as we do, their corporations don't have as much power over the direction of their governments (not to say that they don't have great power, just not as total as in America), and of course the EU has a much more socialized economy. How do you objectively measure executive salaries or military graft against waste and incompetence in state industries or obstinate member-state nationalist bias?

5. Romania and Bulgaria are to the EU as Guam and Puerto Rico are to the US, "we own them, but we don't know these people" - any comparison against Western EU countries is void.

6. Opinion polls are irrelevant for any comparison between the EU and US, because Americans are so incredibly goddamn ignorant and brainwashed and have no realistic idea what the health and strengths and weaknesses of their country actually are. There is also the fact that in stark contrast to America's cult of optimism, core EU members - France, Germany and Poland - are extremely pessimistic cultures. Cross-cultural opinion polls are essentially worthless.

7. The headshot: the data you alluded to actually contradicts your claims. Notwithstanding all objections about the inherently arbitrary and biased nature of TI (where do you think they get their funding?), TI ranks the US as 7.1/10, France as 7.0/10, Germany as 8.0/10, Spain/Portugal as 6.1/10...and Italy as 3.9/10, the only "red-zone" country in all of mainland Europe.

So yes, the data demonstrates...Italy is in a class of its own.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

So I did some digging, and you might be right here. The citation page of that thesis lists this: http://www.transparency.org/pressreleas ... pi.en.html
Transparency International. -- 2003 numbers...of course that page is now gone...but I found this archive of 2003 numbers:

http://archive.transparency.org/policy_ ... s/cpi/2003

Looks completely different. So yeah, I guess that's what I get for trusting a students thesis. I hereby withdraw that chart.

HOWEVER



I gotta own you here, since you wasted a lot of energy on this. You are refuting an argument I did not make. Read back through this thread...if you can find me saying "ohh European countries are sooo much more corrupt than the US" then you'll have a point. But I didn't say that, so you have no point.

I merely said:



The data and research I found was solely to support that statement.

1.) I didn't say anything about EU membership
2.) I didn't say anything specific on "where" in Europe...I merely said "Europe"



The chart you cite, in 2011, doesn't discount my claims at all.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

This is "mainland europe" or "continental europe" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe



You are ignoring quite a few European countries, sir.



Greece as 3.4/10
Albania 3.1/10
FYR Macedonia 3.9/10
Bulgaria 3.3/10
Romania 3.6/10
Serbia 3.3/10
Kosovo 3.9/10
Bosnia and Herzegovina 3.2/10
Maldova 2.9/10
Ukraine 2.3/10
Russia 2.4/10
Belarus 2.4/10

So, that's 12 more countries, in mainland Europe, in addition to Italy, that are in the "red zone" -- certainly by this data Italy is NOT in a "class of its own"

I could also look at the corruption index (scale of 1-10) and assume that any country below a 5 (medium) could be considered "corrupt" -- in that case my statement could hold even more weight as European Countries like:

Hungary 4.6/10
Croatia 4/10
Slovakia 4/10
Czech Republic 4.4/10
Latvia 4.2/10
Lithuania 4.8/10
Montenegro 4/10

Would also be added to the list.

Now, I don't want to get into an argument on Transparency International's motives and questioning their data, as I know that is your knee jerk reaction (and while you may have just cause to question it...I was asked for a citation, I gave a citation).

The point is, my statement is a lot more credible than you'd like FUBU to believe. I've provided evidence in the form of a citation for Tuhl, and rest my case.



http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/

There you go Tuhl.

Your assertion was that most court systems in Europe were a joke.

If we are talking in terms of geography and not geopolitics, then surely you must agree that most court systems in America are also a joke, given the corruption of the court systems in Cuba, Mexico, Trinidad & Tobago, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua and Costa Rica.

Obviously none of those loser countries that share our continent are relevant comparisons with our own system, just as none of those loser countries that share the EU's continent are relevant to theirs.

You clearly made your initial statement in connection to the EU, and are now just trying to cover yourself. If (rhetorically speaking) that was not your intent, then what is the point of your observation? What's the usefulness in comparing the US, Canada, France, Germany, and Spain to not only Italy but to Haiti and Kosovo?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

If I said "most court systems in the European Union are a joke" then you'd have a point. I didn't say that. I said Europe. I didn't "clearly" make a statement in connection to the EU...if I did, I would have said so.



Now, I think what will help you is to understand that I was literally discussing this very thing with my buddy Stoyan the other day. Stoyan is from Bulgaria...so we were discussing European countries, their court system corruption, and how that turmoil and lack of faith in the rule of law in those countries has contributed to them being economically shitty.

The point of saying what I said was simply to point out that Italy is not unique, as you and Tuhl have tried to contend. I was not shocked by this report at all...not because it was Italy's court system, but because so many court systems in European countries are absolute jokes.

I'm not sure why you want to contend that Italy is the lone bad apple in Europe... in fact if we're talking "European Union" the following countries are also bad apples and members of the EU:

Greece
Bulgaria
Romania
Hungary
Slovakia
Czech Republic
Latvia
Lithuania

With several others in that "below 5" category on their way to EU membership.

I made a statement, was challenged to provide a citation, and have done so. I was not comparing Europe to America, and was not comparing shitty North American countries to shitty European countries. I wasn't making any comparisons at all.

Italy is not unique - it's a problem facing many European countries, and yes, many European Union members.