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 Post subject: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:57 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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From The New York Times.

The short verdict: They're all unequivocally full of shit and will rush into immediate gridlock, particularly in the House, come January 3. The "olive branch" talk is a remnant of Obama's first two years—strangely enough, given the overwhelming Democratic Congressional majority, his worst—and I can guarantee that it'll pass into nonexistence within the next two months.

Spoiler (highlight to view):
Boehner's ethos on taxation and spending will be deemed outdated by the left, Warren will be lumped with Sanders as Socialist Enemy Numero Uno and—wait for it—Obama will attempt to instead compromise when the logical, bestial course of action would be to mount Michele Bachmann and assert his dominance.


I'd further wax polemic, but I'd rather set the table for discussion. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:10 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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What you said. Boehner is full of shit. He was center stage in that disgrace two years ago (god its been that long). His credibility is zero. Everyone knows he has no intention of dealing in good faith any more now than then, and this time the Dems and most of his own party aren't going to play his game.

He can shape up or be the next Newt Gingrich. That simple.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:29 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Aestu wrote:
He can shape up or be the next Newt Gingrich. That simple.

I must admit, I'm partial to a moon base.


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:41 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Come again?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:43 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Voilà.


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:02 pm  
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French Faggot
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All Obama has to do to win on this whole issue is let everything expire on its own. If Boehner wants a deal, he needs to be reasonable, otherwise everything ends anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:03 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I assume you have the common sense to know Newt was talking out his ass to get votes.

Be that as it may, the article is also wrong. It is possible, and it could be done even in our financial condition. The military has the necessary assets; after all, most NASA personnel were originally from the Air Force. And the technology, in terms of the theory and know-how and industrial capacity to build the required components, definitely exists.

The hard part would be the human side - establishing not technical infrastructure to build all that crap, but tenuring rocket scientists and empowering to do their jobs, with a strong political mandate guaranteeing funding in the long term, and building and funding programs to train not only a few elite engineers, but legions of "space monkeys" to maintain all the material infrastructure and generally doing the highly skilled grunt work.

I also believe that space colonization would require a fundamental reconception of how we look at space. It's not just enough to put some people on the moon and give them high-tech welfare so they can sit around playing with moon rocks. To make colonization worthwhile, we would need new launch technology and to establish a trade network comparable to the one the British set up in the 17th century, trading different chemical elements between different worlds (trade iron from Mars for water and oxygen from Europa for hydrocarbons from Neptune for silicon and aluminum from Luna). We would know that our colonization efforts have been successful when we have to recruit space marines to protect the trade network from pirates.

Speaking of the lunar silicon reserves, I suddenly find myself very curious if the airless, zero-gravity environment could be used to make higher-quality breast implants. It would certainly be cheaper, due to no need for mechanical equipment or sanitary precautions, that's for sure.

Anyway, of course, none of that will happen until we get a change in our form of government and we get some sort of ultranationalistic leader obsessed with seeing his statue atop Mt. Olympus...

Did you even read all that crap by me? Just curious.

Yuratuhl wrote:
All Obama has to do to win on this whole issue is let everything expire on its own. If Boehner wants a deal, he needs to be reasonable, otherwise everything ends anyway.


This one time, someone told me the secret to driving in New Jersey...

According to that rule, who do you think really has right-of-way, Boehner or Obama?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:09 pm  
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It just occurred to me, what would be the best part of space colonization.
A scientific test of biblical literalism.

If we stage a successful international effort to build a space elevator, then, assuming the Bible is literal fact, what should happen?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:11 pm  
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A lot of these guys are also up for reelection in 2014 (I know McConnell is, maybe Boners too). If anything, this election was a pretty big push from people wanting less conflict in congress by sacking a shitton of tea partiers and loving Romney when he flipped to moderate mode instead of bonkers right (as an aside, I'm pretty sure he would've won the election if he didn't have to go so far to the right during the primaries).

I don't think that they're that stupid to play chicken with Obama, especially with a congress that's taken a couple steps to the left and a president that can just destroy their chances for re-election by just letting them be themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:21 pm  
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Malodorous Moron
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Aestu wrote:
Did you even read all that crap by me? Just curious.

I always do—and for the record, we're in complete agreement here. Colonization is something that I support wholeheartedly, though it is as you've pointed out unlikely to begin in the near future given today's divided politics. I, for one, welcome our ultranationalist, collectivist overlords. (#KONY2016)


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 Post subject: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:28 am  
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Aestu, are you referencing the Tower of Babel? Coolest part about colonization would be Starcraft IRL btw. Disagree with me, I dare you.


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:21 am  
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Battletard wrote:
Aestu, are you referencing the Tower of Babel?


IF Biblical literalism is correct, then, the gods should either prevent us from completing the space elevator, or smite the offices of Google after it is finished.

I'm kind of hoping the latter, really. Just for the lulz. Either way, this would be the closest one could get to a scientific test, no?

Battletard wrote:
Coolest part about colonization would be Starcraft IRL btw. Disagree with me, I dare you.


Starcraft? No way.

Image

Sometimes I actually think about cool names for colony cities.

Eboracum Tertia
(understand what this literally means and why it would have to be the name of America's first colony)
Utopia Planetia
Canaanaar
Aeneasaar
Dracopolis
Hyperborea
New Troy

I very much hope that one day there is the chance to do more. Like buy stock.
Spoiler (highlight to view):
As I've observed, colonization would be like a second industrial revolution. Investment would cost tens of trillions, but once complete, the price of all manufactured goods would drop to near-zero. I firmly believe the way forward for this world is to move heavy industry into space for lower energy and resource costs, and invest in tree farming. Tree farming would provide an abundant supply of the organics that can't be produced elsewhere, repair the ecology, and be so labor intensive that it would provide jobs for Earth's teeming billions.

My belief is that the ecology can never be restored to its original state, but rather than attempt to do so, it would be wiser to take the "fusion cuisine" approach to environmentalism. Since it is impossible to restrict invasive species from most regions or resuscitate extinct species, it would be wiser to try to find species that fill the same role but are useful to humans and establish stable new ecologies: reforesting areas, dumping vast amounts of desalinated seawater in desert areas, and introducing ecosystems that are CO2-negative and can be tapped for a steady supply of goods while sheltering other species.

Since tree farms would not require petrol, labor requirements would be higher but such a system would be more sustainable and provide enough food and materials (wood, biomass, animal products, bioengineered synthetics) for any needs to be met.

I believe that is the logical outgrowth of democratic, nationalist, green, socialist economics. Very careful management of land and resources with the goal of employing as many people as possible, with as little ecological damage as possible, and with very low economic efficiency supported by high technology and extraterrestial imports to make up the difference.

Since education and base materials would be nearly free, there would be plenty of room for small businesses and artisan workshops to pop up. The long-term goal would be to make Wal-Mart obsolete (because of cheap food and space industry) and replace it with M&P stores founded by people bored with life.

Base materials - metals, consumables, etc - would be imported from colonies, but it would be necessary to have workshops on Earth turn those base materials into useful goods. Secondary industry (e.g., turning metal and plastic into cars and computers) involves a lot less damage than primary industry (smelting and refining). With advanced mass transit - a global train network - it would be possible for workshops making any one thing to supply the entire world's needs (e.g., the one big iPod factory in China) then use very high taxes on their profits to support the socialist economy that supplies their material needs.

Simple summary
Colonies ship base materials to Earth, Earth sends them organic materials and people, base materials are crafted into consumer goods by secondary factories on Earth and shipped to all regions via a global train network, people work on tree farms managed by local governments under federal supervision, and a very high VAT funds a massive educational system and investment in all this infrastructure.

This would take decades of planning and investment, and a strong political mandate, but it's definitely possible.

And if you think it is not, let me point out, the necessary expertise and resources is already being invested in the military. Building a global train network, with bridges between Russia and Cuba and the US, would be pretty comparable to maintaining a carrier fleet (do the math as to the size of carriers, how many we have, and how long the distances in question are). The Air Force has several hundred ICBMs and the necessary expertise to get stuff into space, just they would be launching colony packages instead of spy satellites and nukes. The Army gets the same funding and expertise for their massive war machines that could just as easily invested in factories and other capital.

The really funny thing is, the same contractors who are getting rich off military welfare, would get at least as rich off space colonization. They just need to be repurposed.

I believe such a system must be nationalist because there is no other way to convince citizens in a democracy to vote in politicians who ask them to make sacrifices and commit to a big program other than by appealing to a vision of national greatness. I believe that same aspiration for national greatness is necessary to keep society from sliding into decadence and degeneracy. I just don't believe utopianism can ever exert as strong a positive force on the human character as nationalism. Ideally, the democratic nationalist world would evolve into something like Lion's Arch in GW2, except with bullet trains instead of portals.

In short, I just don't buy the argument that there's a choice between ecology, social justice and economic prosperity. I believe capitalism as we know it is doomed and should be replaced by a mixed economy. Capitalism is scarcity-based, and because of high technology, scarcity no longer applies.


So, um, yeah. Vote Newt-Nader.

And you should try SMAC, Max. The game WILL change you.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:03 am  
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From what I've read...doing nothing and letting us fall off the "fiscal cliff" as they are calling it would be a bad idea all around.

What happened in Europe, when they triggered massive spending cuts to programs across the board, coupled with tax increases, it caused a "double dip" recession. People are freaking out, thinking that could happen here.


What the dems are going to try to do is negotiate the tax increases such that anyone making <$250,000 doesn't get a tax increase....but those making more than that will.

Also, much of the budget cuts that are set to happen automatically are focused on the military. Since the military is the "sacred cow" for both parties, the hope is that it triggers action because they won't want to lower that funding (even though it would be the most sensible thing to cut, as military has some ridiculous bloat)


Bottom line, 'Merica still has a hard on for the military, which works to our detriment.



It's funny, there was this hardcore Romney supporter I'm fb friends with. He's also in the Navy. Anyway, he was freaking out going "BLAH BLAH OBAMA IS GUNNA CUT MILITARY FUNDING BLAH BLAH HERR DERR"

then he turns around and rips on entitlement spending / welfare and healthcare.

The hypocrisy is just hilarious. How do some people compartmentalize that shit?


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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:20 pm  
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All of that is true, but the fact remains that budget issues are ultimately secondary to the need for a fundamental restructuring in our society and economy.

We don't need to turn into France or Germany or China, but what we have just isn't going to work. Wealth can't be managed efficiently when it's as stratified as it is, and it's unrealistic to expect the super-rich to create wealth for others on the basis of them being nice or some sort of ideology.

That is reality, no matter how the budget issues turn out.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: John Boehner's Bipartisan Siren Song, Redux
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:21 pm  
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Whether or not Boehner is full of shit or not (he's an elected official in DC, so full of shit comes with the territory) he's laid down the gauntlet. He told President Obama what he and his party are willing to give and what they expect to get in return. The devil is in the details, of course, but if President Obama and his affiliates in congress dismiss this out-of-hand that's going to make the "republicans are obstructing everything, derp" narrative completely untenable during the 2014 midterms.

People are going to find that voting Warren into office was a mistake. She says things people want to hear but, based on her performance when she was involved with TARP/bailout efforts, either has no idea how to make anything happen or isn't serious about what she says. Listening to her is like hearing a left-wing Bill O'Reilly.

The markets took a nose-dive yesterday. The only business sector that looks to be doing well because of President Obama's reelection is the firearms industry. Product started flying off the shelf yesterday, according to my gun-nut roommate, who had already stocked up well in advance of President Obama's win. The "get what legislation we want and delay the consequences of getting it until sometime in the future" bill is going to come due soon. The time-table for everything from tax increases to new portions of the ACA are set to come due in the next 2-4 years. Businesses have not-so-quietly stopped hiring full-time employees, and are instead offering contract work or part-time positions to avoid sections of the ACA. President Obama may have 'inherited' a mess from G.W. Bush, but it's not going to be anything compared to the mess President Obama inherits from his own first term.

If you think about it seriously, Boehner is now the most powerful elected official in government. He can tell President Obama, 'Meet us halfway, we'll give up some of what we want and accept some of what we don't, and you can do the same, or enjoy some more gridlock.' (Oh, wait, he's already done that, hasn't he?) Boehner holds all the cards because either outcome is good for him and the republicans, while President Obama wants neither outcome, and thinks he should be able to get everything he wants and that a delayed timetable for implementing his desires is tossing the republicans a bone. Unless President Obama wants his second term to be two-to-four years of nothing, he has to give Boehner and the republicans something they want, which means that Boehner has the stronger hand.

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