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 Post subject: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:57 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Jubber, I've spent the night in county on 2 separate occasions. No one fucked with me, no one took my food, my O-ring is still 100% intact. Take it from me that jail is not fun, prison is especially not fun.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:39 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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There's a difference between prison and jail.

There's a difference between prisons and prisons. Some are awful, some are humane.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:11 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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What about prison did they miss?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:15 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Aestu wrote:
What about prison did they miss?


Not ever knowing what time it is
Food that can barely qualify as food
Getting held down and beaten
People being stabbed
Not being able to trust anyone, ever
Killing off all emotion as a coping mechanism so you don't appear weak
24 hour lockdown when someone else fucks up



That kind of stuff. Prison and jail are such wonderful places.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:59 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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From what I've read the habits you develop to survive in prison are what send you back there if you can't turn them off in the real world.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:08 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Usdk wrote:
From what I've read the habits you develop to survive in prison are what send you back there if you can't turn them off in the real world.


Bingo. I spent 24 hours in a county jail from 10/10/2012-10/11/2012. I began developing those habits within a matter of hours. It wasn't the worst place I could have been by any means, but let me assure you it was not fun. I can't even imagine someone reintegrating with society after a matter of months or years.

We need to do away with our 'jail is too fun' mentality. It's only creating long term problems for our society.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:19 pm  
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Prisons are more focussed towards punishing the convict and not about rehabilitation, and this should change. Putting a guy convicted of tax evasion in a cell with a guy who killed 8 kids after raping them, PROBABLY isn't that great for the tax evasion guy's chances at rehabilitation, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:21 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Usdk wrote:
Prisons are more focussed towards punishing the convict and not about rehabilitation, and this should change. Putting a guy convicted of tax evasion in a cell with a guy who killed 8 kids after raping them, PROBABLY isn't that great for the tax evasion guy's chances at rehabilitation, either.



I agree that our prison system needs to change. It's entirely possible to rehabilitate people. The reason people say it's not is because our system is not designed for it, and yet we have smaller programs in place that aim to do just that. You can't have it both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:42 pm  
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Battletard wrote:
We need to do away with our 'jail is too fun' mentality. It's only creating long term problems for our society.


I agree with this, but our current system is not a "fix the broken people" system, it's a "segregate the broken people from the rest of us and make them pay" system. From that standpoint, we're doing miserably.

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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:44 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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Jubbergun wrote:
Battletard wrote:
We need to do away with our 'jail is too fun' mentality. It's only creating long term problems for our society.


I agree with this, but our current system is not a "fix the broken people" system, it's a "segregate the broken people from the rest of us and make them pay" system. From that standpoint, we're doing miserably.

Your Pal,
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o/

Yup. Like I said, "can't have it both ways"

We "make them pay" and then attempt to rehabilitate people anyway.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:13 pm  
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French Faggot
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For a Constitutionalist who can't stop riding Scalia's nuts, you sure do hate the Eighth Amendment.


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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:01 pm  
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Hardcore criminals should be put on penal colonies, as opposed to maximum security prisons. The difference being that they would be free to walk around outside and be given responsibilities in a community, albeit a more structured one distanced from mainstream society. Hardcore criminals may be crazy, but very few are incorrigible; it's just that they tend to be unable to get by in anything but a very structured environment.

The reason we don't do this is what React said; there's simply more money in building spaceship-like maximum security prisons.

In the longer term: Very few people are really and truly bad apples. Very few people actually come out of the womb bent on crime and evil. It's no coincidence that crime rates directly correlate with ethnicity and social class. The basic causes of crime are lack of hope, lack of social attachment, and growing up in crime-oriented communities.

Therefore, the best strategy to stop crime, is to fully fund education and healthcare, build recreation centers to keep people from being bored or lonely, and put vast numbers of cops on the street and charge them with stopping not only major crimes but minor crimes. Conscription is the appropriate means of getting enough warm bodies out there. I agree with the viewpoint held by many law enforcement people that minor crimes such as theft and assault inevitably create a culture of crime that drives away businesses and leads to a snowball in crime culture, until rape and murder become commonplace because people accept that way of life.

I also believe it is deceptively important to improve road maintenance and trash pickup. Due to racism and political inequity, poor and/or black neighborhoods tend to get far worse road maintenance (it's extremely visible in Boston). I believe that road maintenance and trash pickup are important to keep neighborhoods clean so businesses can move in, and also because I subscribe to the belief that people's morals and value system is affected by the order and dignity of their surroundings. The effect is subtle but profound.

I think a lot of people would commit murder if they thought they could get away with it, or had nothing to lose, and what puts people in the state of mind to do so, is the hopelessness and squalor of many communities. Fixing that will fix crime. This would, however, require higher taxes, and an acknowledgement of the basic principle that individual people can't do it all and that the country as a whole has a responsibility to pay for fixing other people's problems.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:56 pm  
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Fat Bottomed Faggot
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Quote:
Hardcore criminals should be put on penal colonies, as opposed to maximum security prisons. The difference being that they would be free to walk around outside and be given responsibilities in a community, albeit a more structured one distanced from mainstream society. Hardcore criminals may be crazy, but very few are incorrigible; it's just that they tend to be unable to get by in anything but a very structured environment.


I agree. What better way to repay a debt to society than do productive work for it? I'm assuming that was part in mind. Make able bodied ones do those shit jobs (sorry Mexicans). Those of less able body but sound mind doing... I dunno. Make the alternative noticeably worse. Send gangbangers to gang exclusive sections, keeping them strictly segregated (none of this all ya'll in the yard/cafeteria together), would go a long way in reducing the necessity for those prison survival skills that I think are as good as landing one back in prison as they are for stopping a shank.

I wonder if a prison farm (or similar venture) would be feasible, with wages (shitty ones obviously) building up in a savings account for those who will eventually get out (not having any money and little opportunity for legitimate work is formula for reentering prison), and lifers having whatever wages they would have earned going to pay for the facility itself. I'm sure it wouldn't pay for itself, but it would certainly reduce the cost in more ways than one. Again of course, assuming it was feasible.

Quote:
The reason we don't do this is what React said; there's simply more money in building spaceship-like maximum security prisons.


And even more money in filling them with non-violent drug offenders to increase demand. But that's venturing off topic.

Quote:
In the longer term: Very few people are really and truly bad apples. Very few people actually come out of the womb bent on crime and evil. It's no coincidence that crime rates directly correlate with ethnicity and social class. The basic causes of crime are lack of hope, lack of social attachment, and growing up in crime-oriented communities.


You got it, go on.

Quote:
Therefore, the best strategy to stop crime, is to fully fund education and healthcare, build recreation centers to keep people from being bored or lonely, and put vast numbers of cops on the street and charge them with stopping not only major crimes but minor crimes.


Lukewarm. Kinda platitude-ish in the first part. I'm not sure a rec center is going to stop a lonely person from being lonely. The last part is full agreement.

Quote:
Conscription is the appropriate means of getting enough warm bodies out there.


You lost me.

Quote:
I agree with the viewpoint held by many law enforcement people that minor crimes such as theft and assault inevitably create a culture of crime that drives away businesses and leads to a snowball in crime culture, until rape and murder become commonplace because people accept that way of life.


Ok we're coming back. I agree with this. Hence the saying, 'There goes the neighborhood.'

Quote:
I also believe it is deceptively important to improve road maintenance and trash pickup. Due to racism and political inequity, poor and/or black neighborhoods tend to get far worse road maintenance (it's extremely visible in Boston). I believe that road maintenance and trash pickup are important to keep neighborhoods clean so businesses can move in, and also because I subscribe to the belief that people's morals and value system is affected by the order and dignity of their surroundings. The effect is subtle but profound.


While in Philadelphia, my mother was approached a well dressed, good looking, homeless fellow. By well dressed I mean, not in rags, average, clean clothes. He showed her some paper with his picture and the program he was in and panhandled her for a couple bucks (is panhandled offensive?). Anyway, next time I walk around any city, I'm going to carry a couple small, office wastebasket sized garbage bags with me. If anybody asks me for money, I'm going to hand them a bag and say, you fill this up, and find me on my way back this way, I'll give you 20 bucks.

Filling that bag up should be little problem, Odin knows there was plenty of trash flowing down those streets. I estimate an average person could fill one every 30 minutes easy, probably closer to 15. Even if we say it takes an hour, 20/hr is more than I make, and probably more than most of us under the age of 25-30.

Unfortunately for homeless people, I hate the cities, especially walking around them (let's face it my fat ass hates walking, period). They'll have to settle for food shelf donations.

Anyway, Trash for Cash (I should trademark that). Sponsor a road, and you're donations will go to employing the indigent to beautify our streets!

Ok maybe not.

Quote:
I think a lot of people would commit murder if they thought they could get away with it


I disagree with this Machiavellian view. Certainly some people would, but I don't believe the average person would commit murder because of an assurance of escaping punishment or even with a reason and an assurance of escape. Maybe I'm a rare gem, but Maxipad (I'm word playing your name Battletard, but I'm probably not original) seems almost certainly not the type to kill because he can get away with it.

Quote:
or had nothing to lose, and what puts people in the state of mind to do so, is the hopelessness and squalor of many communities.


Desperation and love however, are the parents of insanity.

Quote:
Not ever knowing what time it is


I had a teacher that would cover the clock. That was hella annoying. The sign always said "It's time to work."

Quote:
For a Constitutionalist who can't stop riding Scalia's nuts, you sure do hate the Eighth Amendment.


For a nut who can't stop riding Constitutionalists, you sure do hate Scalia.

I'm not sure this word rearrange worked. I just wanted to call you a nut.
And hey, I'm at least right in the latter half.


"Ok we aren't such things and birds are pretty advanced. They fly and shit from anywhere they want. While we sit on our automatic toilets, they're shitting on people and my car while a cool breeze tickles their anus. That's the life."
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 Post subject: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:34 pm  
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Str8 Actin Dude
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The time thing is a much bigger deal than many people might think.


Brawlsack

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 Post subject: Re: Loughner sentenced to life.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:48 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Weena wrote:
I agree. What better way to repay a debt to society than do productive work for it? I'm assuming that was part in mind. Make able bodied ones do those shit jobs (sorry Mexicans). Those of less able body but sound mind doing... I dunno. Make the alternative noticeably worse. Send gangbangers to gang exclusive sections, keeping them strictly segregated (none of this all ya'll in the yard/cafeteria together), would go a long way in reducing the necessity for those prison survival skills that I think are as good as landing one back in prison as they are for stopping a shank.


How does one objectively make that distinction?

Weena wrote:
I wonder if a prison farm (or similar venture) would be feasible, with wages (shitty ones obviously) building up in a savings account for those who will eventually get out (not having any money and little opportunity for legitimate work is formula for reentering prison), and lifers having whatever wages they would have earned going to pay for the facility itself. I'm sure it wouldn't pay for itself, but it would certainly reduce the cost in more ways than one. Again of course, assuming it was feasible.


We already do this. So does China. It's inherently abuse-prone. Very little good comes of it and a lot of bad.

Weena wrote:
And even more money in filling them with non-violent drug offenders to increase demand. But that's venturing off topic.


Drugs are illegal for a very good reason which is that allowing people to smoke weed and feel good about themselves and the world is very dangerous. Why try to improve the world when you can smoke a cheap and easy-to-grow herb and feel good about the shit you live in? And no, that's not strictly a personal problem. The social dangers posed by legal drugs has already been proven by history - the Opium War, the chaos of 1920s Europe, or further back, the Isle of the Lotus Eaters.

Forgetting - or refusing to acknowledge - that history doesn't make it any less real.

Weena wrote:
Lukewarm. Kinda platitude-ish in the first part. I'm not sure a rec center is going to stop a lonely person from being lonely.


You would be surprised. Humans are social creatures. Engagement makes them less likely to commit crimes.

Weena wrote:
Quote:
Conscription is the appropriate means of getting enough warm bodies out there.


You lost me.


Rather than having to spend exorbitant amounts of money hiring more cops that are just going to become part of the status quo, bring back universal military service, and anyone who isn't needed for active duty will be assigned to police duty, as far as possible from their hometown.

Weena wrote:
While in Philadelphia, my mother was approached a well dressed, good looking, homeless fellow. By well dressed I mean, not in rags, average, clean clothes.


I've seen this myself often. Homeless people often keep a set of "average" clothes because they know something about human nature: people have this really bizarre urge to make the rich richer and to be more generous to those who are already well off. Same reason salesmen dress in suits.

(There is actually a very interesting scientific reason for this I am sure you are not interested in hearing).

Don't mistake being "well dressed" for not being a bum. It's really not hard to get decent clothes.

Weena wrote:
He showed her some paper with his picture and the program he was in and panhandled her for a couple bucks (is panhandled offensive?).


What you describe is a common gig, and he may or may not have actually been in a program.

I don't really get what you're trying to say. Do you think it's somehow offensive that someone is trying to get by? What would you have him do?

Weena wrote:
Anyway, next time I walk around any city, I'm going to carry a couple small, office wastebasket sized garbage bags with me. If anybody asks me for money, I'm going to hand them a bag and say, you fill this up, and find me on my way back this way, I'll give you 20 bucks.

Filling that bag up should be little problem, Odin knows there was plenty of trash flowing down those streets. I estimate an average person could fill one every 30 minutes easy, probably closer to 15. Even if we say it takes an hour, 20/hr is more than I make, and probably more than most of us under the age of 25-30.


You could do this, but let's be honest, you won't. I mean hey you won't even pay taxes to take care of other people's problems right? So should we really believe you're going to spend towards the common good on your own initiative? Really the fantasy is appealing only because you find it gratifying to be better off than SOMEONE.

And in fact it is already the status quo. How often do you see cans and bottles on the ground? How do you think recycling centers stay in business?
Homeless people do a good job with that. But only because of the guvmint law making everyone pay an extra 5 cents per beverage...

Weena wrote:
I disagree with this Machiavellian view. Certainly some people would, but I don't believe the average person would commit murder because of an assurance of escaping punishment or even with a reason and an assurance of escape. Maybe I'm a rare gem, but Maxipad (I'm word playing your name Battletard, but I'm probably not original) seems almost certainly not the type to kill because he can get away with it.


Objectively untrue. People are vicious when social restrictions are removed. This is true, for example, in wartime, or in the Wild West, or before people became civilized. The point of society and its laws are to constrict human nature.

Weena wrote:
Quote:
or had nothing to lose, and what puts people in the state of mind to do so, is the hopelessness and squalor of many communities.


Desperation and love however, are the parents of insanity.


Trite but untrue. In reality, insanity is the result of mistaking wishes for truth.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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