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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:27 am  
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Some dude came into work about 3am. Cart full of twinkies from various other stores (why he was carrying them all around unless he had no car or was just showing off, idk). Came in, bought up all of ours as three ladies walked in all "WHERE THE HELL DID YOU FIND TWINKIES!?"

Redonkulous.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:13 am  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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Meowth wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Meowth wrote:
tldr anything here, but the workers brought this upon themselves


So if you were crippled as a result of a car accident while doing a delivery for UPS, and they decided to shred your worker's comp agreement, that would be totally your fault, right?

Except that is not the same thing at all. Twinkiehouse says they have no money, workers call bullshit and go on strike, and now twinkiehouse says fine have it your way and liquidate/bankruptcy/whatever it is called. An actual issue would be related to the USPS where they have an ungodly amount of money that is supposed to go to pensions and they did this to get off the hook for that which could be the reason. Except the post office can't really disappear and has its own share of problems not entirely related to itself.


You're pretty stupid, tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:00 pm  
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Pot is legal in two states now, they probably should have held on a week.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:38 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Mns wrote:
Meowth wrote:
Aestu wrote:
Meowth wrote:
tldr anything here, but the workers brought this upon themselves


So if you were crippled as a result of a car accident while doing a delivery for UPS, and they decided to shred your worker's comp agreement, that would be totally your fault, right?

Except that is not the same thing at all. Twinkiehouse says they have no money, workers call bullshit and go on strike, and now twinkiehouse says fine have it your way and liquidate/bankruptcy/whatever it is called. An actual issue would be related to the USPS where they have an ungodly amount of money that is supposed to go to pensions and they did this to get off the hook for that which could be the reason. Except the post office can't really disappear and has its own share of problems not entirely related to itself.


You're pretty stupid, tbh.


Because everyone went on strike vs a single person had a broken leg is the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:04 pm  
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MegaFaggot 5000
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No, but screwing someone out of union benefits and screwing someone out of worker's comp are, especially since they're both agreements made by the company to its workers.

EDIT: The exact same Ron Paul world that you're into is the same one that would throw you under the bus if they had a chance, especially if there's someone that'll work for less that can fill your place. Another reason why nobody takes libertarianism seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:01 pm  
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Mns wrote:
No, but screwing someone out of union benefits and screwing someone out of worker's comp are, especially since they're both agreements made by the company to its workers.

EDIT: The exact same Ron Paul world that you're into is the same one that would throw you under the bus if they had a chance, especially if there's someone that'll work for less that can fill your place. Another reason why nobody takes libertarianism seriously.


Quote:
The new contract cut salaries across the company by 8% in the first year of the five-year agreement. Salaries were then scheduled to bump up 3% in the next three years and 1% in the final year.

Hostess also reduced its pension obligations and its contribution to the employees' health care plan. In exchange, the company offered concessions, including a 25% equity stake for workers and the inclusion of two union representatives on an eight-member board of directors.


Now they're out of a job and get jack shit.

Also, twinkies boxes are selling for like 400 dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:32 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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None of what the hedge funds offered means anything.

This company has been in trouble many times before, and gone back and cut the same employee commitments repeatedly. Why should the workers believe those promises will be honored? Even if they did, 1-3% is less than inflation. What they are offering isn't a raise...it's a salary cut. Pure spin.

Offering the workers equity is a scam because, in the event of a default, shareholders are typically the last group to be given anything. The hedge funds want to trade their worthless paper for cash and other real assets, so they can finish running the company into the ground and leave the workers high and dry with worthless junk bonds.

And two union reps on an eight-member board is a case of two wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.

Hostess didn't survive because it didn't want to. Hedge funds don't care about making businesses viable, they care about running them into the ground as fast as possible to cash out. Hostess had 30 years to get its act together, instead papered over weaknesses, engaged in rampant acquisition and overmarketed shitty products.

How does squeezing the workers address any of those problems?


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:21 pm  
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French Faggot
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Aestu said everything I was going to.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:12 am  
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Malodorous Moron
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can anyone tell me the average salary or hourly wage out of those 18,000 union workers?


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:51 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Rathmoon wrote:
can anyone tell me the average salary or hourly wage out of those 18,000 union workers?


http://www.careerbliss.com/salary/hoste ... production

$50k/yr


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:06 pm  
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The root causes of these problems go a lot deeper than just "people being greedy," whether you think the greedy assholes are the ones running the company or the ones in the union demanding more money.

We're not going to get out of the capital investment model of buy it, run it into the ground, and sell the remains until we change the incentives in our financial system. The current model also encourages speculation and buy-sell-buy-sell bubbles in various financial sectors. If you want to encourage long-term growth/strength in a business, you have to change the incentive from 'buy low/sell high' to 'invest/be rewarded.' The best way to do this would be to put a more onerous tax on the components on the buy-sell model than there is on the dividend model. That would involve finding ways/regulations/taxes that would encourage companies to reinvest profit to build their business and reward investors...dividend payments would also more accurately reflect the strength/value of a company than would a fluctuating stock price, and would provide a more stable model for executive compensation than the current model where bonuses/raises are tied to what the stock price is at a particular point in a fiscal quarter/year.

We're also going to need to admit that unions are no longer (if they ever were) virtuous civic organizations looking out for the good of their members and/or the companies with whom their members are affiliated. This is not the first business that has been run into the ground by a combination of unrealistic union demands, bad management, and undesirable market conditions. The airline industry is just one example of another sector heavily impacted by these factors.

Instead of thinking that greed is either good or bad, we need to accept it as a component of human behavior and use it to our advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:07 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Union "demands" were reasonable. Actually, they weren't really demands at all, since they were being asked to take a cut in not only pay and claims, but also their share of the overall pie (by corollary, increasing the share of those who caused and profited off the disaster in the first place). Unions have always been pretty dirty entities, but it's indisputably true that for generations they ensured living wages and the overall health of the capitalist system, by putting money in consumers' pockets.

Anyway, I have come to the same basic conclusion as Jubber. Greed is an inevitable element of the human character, and while it is not a good thing and should not be encouraged, it should be worked to everyone's advantage. And I also agree with Jubber's belief that the capitalist system is failing because it rewards short-term gains over long-term planning...and there is no way to fix this without some sort of active intervention (i.e., regulation).

The question is, how?

I do agree with Jubber that businesses managed by a single founder, or by a family, tend to be more responsible and more high-minded than impersonal conglomerates that exist only to cash out. And I also do agree with the basic premise of local government, that basically uneducated people of reasonably normal intelligence can make good decisions about things that are well-known to them from daily life.

Most early 20th century democratic socialists believed that capitalism was doomed and that rather than trying to overthrow it violently and revert to a state monopoly of all property, it would be wiser to gradually phase it out and convert to a mixed economy. Because of the rise of extremist movements, two world wars and American hegemony, it didn't turn out that way, but the basic dilemma, how to make a place for everyone in this modern world, remains unanswered.

I agree with the more traditional view. My belief is that the strategy should be to gradually turn mature, privately held firms into co-ops, and increase accountability.

Specific ideas:
(it should be understood these suggestions apply exclusively to corporations and not privately held firms; the idea being that choosing to incorporate should be a definite trade-off, with many onerous burdens, instead of a "never go to jail" card)

-Mandate a fixed ratio of cash and equity in compensation for all employees of all firms, and stipulate stock options for all employees, maturing at fixed points in tenure. Over the long term, this would dilute existing holdings and gradually convert all firms to employee-controlled co-ops.

-Create a sort of "commission" system for corporate officers: responsibility for a business policy or decision rests with commissioned personnel (i.e., elected board members, per company charter), and only such individuals have the authority to implement policy. Any business policy or statement must be authorized by a stamp from such individual, and are considered sworn statements, so any mistruth or illegal policy is perjury and fraud. Make it illegal to pay people to do, or for employees to do without being paid, anything that isn't authorized in such a way (i.e., "anything that is not forbidden is compulsory").

-Allow retroactive clawbacks of personal funds and assets against former management who committed abuses.

-Change legal procedure such that responsibility for malfeasance now flows bottom-up, even if superiors at the top claim they didn't know what their subordinates were doing. The assumption being, either they did know, in which case they were guilty, and deserve to be punished, or they didn't know, in which case they were incompetent, and deserve to be punished. After all, that's why they get paid the big bucks.

-Incorporated business entities must observe FOIA, according to the logic that they are incorporated only because the state recognizes that status, therefore, they are de facto public entities and should be treated as such, without any right to privacy or secrecy.

-Ban political donations, instead apportioning campaign funds based on a popular quorum, and mandating that media firms recognized by the FCC must provide a fixed amount of airtime to any qualifying candidate.

-Convert the legal system to a GDKP system and bind legal licenses to that system (breaking the power of corporate lawyers and class action abusers).

-Eliminate non-profit tax status and make charitable donations no longer tax deductible. While I do realize this will hurt some legitimately good causes, my extensive experience with non-profits leads me to firmly believe that non-profits and charitable donations do a great deal of harm and very little good.

-Cut income taxes and massively increase capital gains and land taxes, and make them scale very steeply. Capital gains tax scaling should be so steep that it is possible to actually have a tax rate of 99% on very large gains. This will discourage liquidations and churn-and-burn investment.

-Similarly, land taxes should scale dramatically, encouraging the breakup of large holdings and build-up rather than sprawl. Increase the base tax on land, and make improvements tax-deductible via tax bond vouchers paid off against future profits.

For example, if you own a donut factory, and buy a new mixer, instead of getting an immediate write-off, you could apply for a voucher, then turn in voucher tickets for the life of the mixer, writing off its cost against the profits it makes. This would be exclusive towards improvements made and bought here in the States.

How does that sound to you, Jubber? Or anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:22 pm  
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Who the hell would buy a box of twinkies for 400$ ?Discounting people who would then try to turn it over for more profit of course.
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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:25 pm  
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Monotheist wrote:
Who the hell would buy a box of twinkies for 400$ ?Discounting people who would then try to turn it over for more profit of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Did Greedy Labor Unions Kill the Twinkie?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:26 pm  
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I think Tallahassee is more apt to just shoot you for the box though :P
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