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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:54 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
1.) For truly "bad eggs" who either suffer from severe psychosis, or have mental issues far outside the realm of poor socialisation and upbringing...hospitalisation / medication seem to be the only course of action


These people are very rare and irrelevant. They will inevitably destroy themselves.

Azelma wrote:
2.) For the second type, I'd argue that a look at family structures....therapy for both the parents and the child could be helpful. Could a parent who has previously never been self critical be "shown the light"? Could, with enough discussion and coaching, a parent learn the ways they are doing wrong by their child?


No. Generally speaking, people don't change. You can't "make" someone care. And therapy is malarkey. "You can't have too much of a bad thing."

Azelma wrote:
You're right in that shrinkology is too often focused on the child...the child's issues. Yet, I know in my girlfriends' program they work on viewing the family as a whole. They work on attachment theory...developing stronger bonds etc. It's not perfect, but I think we have to start small. We cannot just outlaw all guns and throw all unfit parents in a ditch (as much as I'm sure you'd like to ;-) ). We can however, work on starting with 1 family at a time.


"Attachment theory" is bullshit, for the reason I stated: the totalitarian principle. "Attachment theory" is nothing more than an evil excuse to exploit children for money.

"Family as a whole" is also bullshit. Nihilistic copout; avoiding blaming any one person, because the parents have the pocketbook and are never wrong. So rather than lay blame where it belongs, split the difference and charge for the service. That is it, and that is all.

Azelma wrote:
The key for all of this too, is identifying the Adam Lanza's of the world before they snap.


Adam Lanza was fine. He didn't need to be identified.

What needed to happen was for the "family law" and shrinkology system to be dismantled so he could get on with his life. Again, this is "can't have too much of a bad thing." The system breaks something that is working fine, so rather than throw it out the window and go with what works, you try to argue that we just need more bad stuff.

Azelma wrote:
Even now, my way of survival has been "keep your head down and stay close to those with power" At the risk of being too honest, I was reading about prison culture the other day..... If I were to ever be arrested I know what I would do on my first day in prison. I'm certain I would align myself with a stronger male and become his bitch for protection. Perhaps I'd carve out a niche as a man who can make deals and sneak in things. Bottom line, it would work, and I would survive. Do you read/watch game of thrones? I'm Littlefinger with a moral compass. I know how to play the game, and it's helped me be successful.


"Success is always a liar."

Place the quote.

Azelma wrote:
Perhaps that's the issue all these shooters have faced to much more significant degrees. When you feel you have no purpose, are not being heard, or cannot express yourself...you lash out. Obviously, there's something missing -- and all the convictions in the world can't fix it. Just like all the questioning in the world can't fix what leaves me unfulfilled.


Because your questions never leave you with answers.

Asking whether God exists or whether there are aliens or what would happen if Hitler won WWII are useless questions because they can't produce actionable answers. The same is true of endless pseudo-philosophical meandering. To seek first and final principles is to know God.

Back and forth we go about therapy. But no matter how full of holes the pseudoscience is proven to be, you argue that "you can't have too much of a bad thing", on the basis of nothing more than sheer banality. That is why your questioning is not useful. You don't distill your answers into truths.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:53 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Aestu wrote:
Azelma wrote:
1.) For truly "bad eggs" who either suffer from severe psychosis, or have mental issues far outside the realm of poor socialisation and upbringing...hospitalisation / medication seem to be the only course of action


These people are very rare and irrelevant. They will inevitably destroy themselves.


Very rare? This is probably one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Can you offer any evidence that mental illness is "very rare" other than you not believing in it?

Two other points:

I know it is hard for you to understand, but most people LOVE their children. And it is a love that is so deep, it is virtually indescribable. You clearly don't understand this emotion. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also, it appears that the father broke up the family and married another woman. It doesn't look like she had much choice in the matter...

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Callysta of Reverence
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 Post subject: Re: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:56 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Callysta wrote:
Very rare? This is probably one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Can you offer any evidence that mental illness is "very rare" other than you not believing in it?


Other cultures don't have the problem.

Callysta wrote:
I know it is hard for you to understand, but most people LOVE their children. And it is a love that is so deep, it is virtually indescribable. You clearly don't understand this emotion. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Most people also don't have children who do the kinds of things in question.

Callysta wrote:
Also, it appears that the father broke up the family and married another woman. It doesn't look like she had much choice in the matter...


What you really mean is you identify more with this crazy woman than with any sane person.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Re: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:02 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Aestu wrote:
Callysta wrote:
Very rare? This is probably one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Can you offer any evidence that mental illness is "very rare" other than you not believing in it?


Other cultures don't have the problem.

Callysta wrote:
I know it is hard for you to understand, but most people LOVE their children. And it is a love that is so deep, it is virtually indescribable. You clearly don't understand this emotion. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Most people also don't have children who do the kinds of things in question.

Callysta wrote:
Also, it appears that the father broke up the family and married another woman. It doesn't look like she had much choice in the matter...


What you really mean is you identify more with this crazy woman than with any sane person.


Show me proof that other cultures don't have mental illness problems. Also, I don't identify with either :p I actually assume they are both equally to blame for their marriage breaking up and they were childish to fight after it was over.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus


Callysta of Reverence
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 Post subject: Re: Re: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:07 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Callysta wrote:
Show me proof that other cultures don't have mental illness problems.


You're asking me to prove a negative. Burden of proof is on party making positive contention.

That said, mass murder is nearly unheard of in other cultures. The only recent one was that guy in Finland. And the US consumes far more prescription drugs than other cultures.

Callysta wrote:
Also, I don't identify with either :p I actually assume they are both equally to blame for their marriage breaking up and they were childish to fight after it was over.


What is your basis for that assumption?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:24 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Wow, way to duck Cally's question.


Burden of proof is on whoever is making the statement. You are saying mental illness is not a problem in other countries.

Prove it.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:26 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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It isn't. Simple as that. They don't talk in shrinkological terms and they don't have the problems with drugs (legal and otherwise) and insanity-driven violence. That's the best that can be done to prove a negative.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:40 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu wrote:
It isn't. Simple as that. They don't talk in shrinkological terms and they don't have the problems with drugs (legal and otherwise) and insanity-driven violence. That's the best that can be done to prove a negative.


Where's the mental health data?

Do they have insane asylums?

What are suicide rates like?

Where's the data?


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:43 pm  
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According to the WHO, 450 million people worldwide who suffer from mental illness are not getting help that they need. Further, one in four will suffer from mental illness at some point in their life.

Looks like mental illness exists outside of the US. :rolls eyes:

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Callysta of Reverence
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:52 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Azelma wrote:
Do they have insane asylums?


What is the meaning of this question? If other countries have insane asylums, what does that prove? What if they don't, what does that then prove? If we closed every insane asylum in the US, would that mean we don't have a mental health problem?

If we accept the reasoning that smoke indicates the presence of fire, then you are arguing that firehoses indicates the presence of fire.

Do we say America has a nuclear war problem because we have an abundance of fallout shelters?

Azelma wrote:
What are suicide rates like?


Equating suicide with mental illness is a cultural bias and proves your argument unscientific.

Azelma wrote:
Where's the mental health data? Where's the data?


How can you have objective data when the variables are subjective and pseudo-scientific?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence ... _disorders

Quote:
The United States, Colombia, the Netherlands and Ukraine tended to have higher prevalence estimates across most classes of disorder, while Nigeria, Shanghai and Italy were consistently low, and prevalence was lower in Asian countries in general. Cases of disorder were rated as mild (prevalence of 1.8%–9.7%), moderate (prevalence of 0.5%–9.4%) and serious (prevalence of 0.4%–7.7%).[6]

However, these are widely believed to be underestimates, due to poor diagnosis (especially in countries without affordable access to mental health services) and low reporting rates, in part because of the predominant use of self-report data, rather than semi-structured instruments such as the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV (SCID); actual lifetime prevalence rates for mental disorders are estimated to be between 65% and 85%.[citation needed]


There you go: pseudoscience built on circular reasoning. "We know that what we believe is correct, so if we aren't seeing the evidence to support it, that just means we're not looking hard enough."


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.


Last edited by Aestu on Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:53 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Callysta wrote:
According to the WHO, 450 million people worldwide who suffer from mental illness are not getting help that they need. Further, one in four will suffer from mental illness at some point in their life.


It is impossible to have objective data about a subjective phenomenon.

If you disagree, then, what are the objective criteria, and by what authority are they universally applied?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:37 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Case and point.


Azelma

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:41 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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How does pointing out that your criteria are subjective, unscientific, biased or illogical prove your position? "You don't agree, therefore you're wrong"?


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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 Post subject: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:30 pm  
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http://www.terriblefate.com/

OOGA BOOGA WHERE DA WITE WIMMEN AT
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 Post subject: Re: Re: Sometimes I hope the Mayans are Right
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:35 pm  
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Grimmgor wrote:
http://www.terriblefate.com/

OOGA BOOGA WHERE DA WITE WIMMEN AT
that's amazing

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