Prepare for a wall, good read, thoughts?

Yewluze · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:56 am

Quote:

Americans, I have some bad news for you:

You have the worst quality of life in the developed world – by a wide margin.

If you had any idea of how people really lived in Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and many parts of Asia, you’d be rioting in the streets calling for a better life. In fact, the average Australian or Singaporean taxi driver has a much better standard of living than the typical American white-collar worker.

I have lived all around the world, in wealthy countries and poor ones, and there is only one country I would never consider living in again: The United States of America. The mere thought of it fills me with dread.

Consider this: you are the only people in the developed world without a single-payer health system. Everyone in Western Europe, Japan, Canada, Australia, Singapore and New Zealand has a single-payer system. If they get sick, they can devote all their energies to getting well. If you get sick, you have to battle two things at once: your illness and the fear of financial ruin. Millions of Americans go bankrupt every year due to medical bills, and tens of thousands die each year because they have no insurance or insufficient insurance. And don’t believe for a second that rot about America having the world’s best medical care or the shortest waiting lists: I’ve been to hospitals in Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Singapore, and Thailand, and every one was better than the “good” hospital I used to go to back home. The waits were shorter, the facilities more comfortable, and the doctors just as good.

This is ironic, because you need a good health system more than anyone else in the world. Why? Because your lifestyle is almost designed to make you sick.

Let’s start with your diet: Much of the beef you eat has been exposed to fecal matter in processing. Your chicken is contaminated with salmonella. Your stock animals and poultry are pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics. In most other countries, the government would act to protect consumers from this sort of thing; in the United States, the government is bought off by industry to prevent any effective regulations or inspections. In a few years, the majority of all the produce for sale in the United States will be from genetically modified crops, thanks to the cozy relationship between Monsanto Corporation and the United States government. Worse still, due to the vast quantities of high-fructose corn syrup Americans consume, fully one-third of children born in the United States today will be diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes at some point in their lives.

Of course, it’s not just the food that’s killing you, it’s the drugs. If you show any sign of life when you’re young, they’ll put you on Ritalin. Then, when you get old enough to take a good look around, you’ll get depressed, so they’ll give you Prozac. If you’re a man, this will render you chemically impotent, so you’ll need Viagra to get it up. Meanwhile, your steady diet of trans-fat-laden food is guaranteed to give you high cholesterol, so you’ll get a prescription for Lipitor. Finally, at the end of the day, you’ll lay awake at night worrying about losing your health plan, so you’ll need Lunesta to go to sleep.

With a diet guaranteed to make you sick and a health system designed to make sure you stay that way, what you really need is a long vacation somewhere. Unfortunately, you probably can’t take one. I’ll let you in on little secret: if you go to the beaches of Thailand, the mountains of Nepal, or the coral reefs of Australia, you’ll probably be the only American in sight. And you’ll be surrounded crowds of happy Germans, French, Italians, Israelis, Scandinavians and wealthy Asians. Why? Because they’re paid well enough to afford to visit these places AND they can take vacations long enough to do so. Even if you could scrape together enough money to go to one of these incredible places, by the time you recovered from your jet lag, it would time to get on a plane and rush back to your job.

The fact is, they work you like dogs in the United States. This should come as no surprise: the United States never got away from the plantation/sweat shop labor model and any real labor movement was brutally suppressed. Unless you happen to be a member of the ownership class, your options are pretty much limited to barely surviving on service-sector wages or playing musical chairs for a spot in a cubicle (a spot that will be outsourced to India next week anyway). The very best you can hope for is to get a professional degree and then milk the system for a slice of the middle-class pie. And even those who claw their way into the middle class are but one illness or job loss away from poverty. Your jobs aren’t secure. Your company has no loyalty to you. They’ll play you off against your coworkers for as long as it suits them, then they’ll get rid of you.

Of course, you don’t have any choice in the matter: the system is designed this way. In most countries in the developed world, higher education is either free or heavily subsidized; in the United States, a university degree can set you back over US$100,000. Thus, you enter the working world with a crushing debt. Forget about taking a year off to travel the world and find yourself – you’ve got to start working or watch your credit rating plummet.

If you’re “lucky,” you might even land a job good enough to qualify you for a home loan. And then you’ll spend half your working life just paying the interest on the loan – welcome to the world of American debt slavery. America has the illusion of great wealth because there’s a lot of “stuff” around, but who really owns it? In real terms, the average American is poorer than the poorest ghetto dweller in Manila, because at least they have no debts. If they want to pack up and leave, they can; if you want to leave, you can’t, because you’ve got debts to pay.

All this begs the question: Why would anyone put up with this? Ask any American and you’ll get the same answer: because America is the freest country on earth. If you believe this, I’ve got some more bad news for you: America is actually among the least free countries on earth. Your piss is tested, your emails and phone calls are monitored, your medical records are gathered, and you are never more than one stray comment away from writhing on the ground with two taser prongs in your ass.

And that’s just physical freedom. Mentally, you are truly imprisoned. You don’t even know the degree to which you are tormented by fears of medical bankruptcy, job loss, homelessness and violent crime because you’ve never lived in a country where there is no need to worry about such things.

But it goes much deeper than mere surveillance and anxiety. The fact is, you are not free because your country has been taken over and occupied by another government. Fully 70% of your tax dollars go to the Pentagon, and the Pentagon is the real government of the United States. You are required under pain of death to pay taxes to this occupying government. If you’re from the less fortunate classes, you are also required to serve and die in their endless wars, or send your sons and daughters to do so. You have no choice in the matter: there is a socio-economic draft system in the United States that provides a steady stream of cannon fodder for the military.

If you call a life of surveillance, anxiety and ceaseless toil in the service of a government you didn’t elect “freedom,” then you and I have a very different idea of what that word means.

If there was some chance that the country could be changed, there might be reason for hope. But can you honestly look around and conclude that anything is going to change? Where would the change come from? The people? Take a good look at your compatriots: the working class in the United States has been brutally propagandized by jackals like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity. Members of the working class have been taught to lick the boots of their masters and then bend over for another kick in the ass. They’ve got these people so well trained that they’ll take up arms against the other half of the working class as soon as their masters give the word.

If the people cannot make a change, how about the media? Not a chance. From Fox News to the New York Times, the mass media in the United States is nothing but the public relations wing of the corporatocracy, primarily the military industrial complex. At least the citizens of the former Soviet Union knew that their news was bull****. In America, you grow up thinking you’ve got a free media, which makes the propaganda doubly effective. If you don’t think American media is mere corporate propaganda, ask yourself the following question: have you ever heard a major American news outlet suggest that the country could fund a single-payer health system by cutting military spending?

If change can’t come from the people or the media, the only other potential source of change would be the politicians. Unfortunately, the American political process is among the most corrupt in the world. In every country on earth, one expects politicians to take bribes from the rich. But this generally happens in secret, behind the closed doors of their elite clubs. In the United States, this sort of political corruption is done in broad daylight, as part of legal, accepted, standard operating procedure. In the United States, they merely call these bribes campaign donations, political action committees and lobbyists. One can no more expect the politicians to change this system than one can expect a man to take an axe and chop his own legs out from underneath him.

No, the United States of America is not going to change for the better. The only change will be for the worse. And when I say worse, I mean much worse. As we speak, the economic system that sustained the country during the post-war years is collapsing. The United States maxed out its “credit card” sometime in 2008 and now its lenders, starting with China, are in the process of laying the foundations for a new monetary system to replace the Anglo-American “petro-dollar” system. As soon as there is a viable alternative to the US dollar, the greenback will sink like a stone.

While the United States was running up crushing levels of debt, it was also busy shipping its manufacturing jobs and white-collar jobs overseas, and letting its infrastructure fall to pieces. Meanwhile, Asian and European countries were investing in education, infrastructure and raw materials. Even if the United States tried to rebuild a real economy (as opposed to a service/financial economy) do think American workers would ever be able to compete with the workers of China or Europe? Have you ever seen a Japanese or German factory? Have you ever met a Singaporean or Chinese worker?

There are only two possible futures facing the United States, and neither one is pretty. The best case is a slow but orderly decline – essentially a continuation of what’s been happening for the last two decades. Wages will drop, unemployment will rise, Medicare and Social Security benefits will be slashed, the currency will decline in value, and the disparity of wealth will spiral out of control until the United States starts to resemble Mexico or the Philippines – tiny islands of wealth surrounded by great poverty (the country is already halfway there).

Equally likely is a sudden collapse, perhaps brought about by a rapid flight from the US dollar by creditor nations like China, Japan, Korea and the OPEC nations. A related possibility would be a default by the United States government on its vast debt. One look at the financial balance sheet of the US government should convince you how likely this is: governmental spending is skyrocketing and tax receipts are plummeting – something has to give. If either of these scenarios plays out, the resulting depression will make the present recession look like a walk in the park.

Whether the collapse is gradual or gut-wrenchingly sudden, the results will be chaos, civil strife and fascism. Let’s face it: the United States is like the former Yugoslavia – a collection of mutually antagonistic cultures united in name only. You’ve got your own version of the Taliban: right-wing Christian fundamentalists who actively loathe the idea of secular Constitutional government. You’ve got a vast intellectual underclass that has spent the last few decades soaking up Fox News and talk radio propaganda, eager to blame the collapse on Democrats, gays and immigrants. You’ve got a ruthless ownership class that will use all the means at its disposal to protect its wealth from the starving masses.

On top of all that you’ve got vast factory farms, sprawling suburbs and a truck-based shipping system, all of it entirely dependent on oil that is about to become completely unaffordable. And you’ve got guns. Lots of guns. In short: the United States is about to become a very unwholesome place to be.

Right now, the government is building fences and walls along its northern and southern borders. Right now, the government is working on a national ID system (soon to be fitted with biometric features). Right now, the government is building a surveillance state so extensive that they will be able to follow your every move, online, in the street and across borders. If you think this is just to protect you from “terrorists,” then you’re sadly mistaken. Once the **** really hits the fan, do you really think you’ll just be able to jump into the old station wagon, drive across the Canadian border and spend the rest of your days fishing and drinking Molson? No, the government is going to lock the place down. They don’t want their tax base escaping. They don’t want their “recruits” escaping. They don’t want YOU escaping.

I am not writing this to scare you. I write this to you as a friend. If you are able to read and understand what I’ve written here, then you are a member of a small minority in the United States. You are a minority in a country that has no place for you.

So what should you do?

You should leave the United States of America.

If you’re young, you’ve got plenty of choices: you can teach English in the Middle East, Asia or Europe. Or you can go to university or graduate school abroad and start building skills that will qualify you for a work visa. If you’ve already got some real work skills, you can apply to emigrate to any number of countries as a skilled immigrant. If you are older and you’ve got some savings, you can retire to a place like Costa Rica or the Philippines. If you can’t qualify for a work, student or retirement visa, don’t let that stop you – travel on a tourist visa to a country that appeals to you and talk to the expats you meet there. Whatever you do, go speak to an immigration lawyer as soon as you can. Find out exactly how to get on a path that will lead to permanent residence and eventually citizenship in the country of your choice.

You will not be alone. There are millions of Americans just like me living outside the United States. Living lives much more fulfilling, peaceful, free and abundant than we ever could have attained back home. Some of us happened upon these lives by accident – we tried a year abroad and found that we liked it – others made a conscious decision to pack up and leave for good. You’ll find us in Canada, all over Europe, in many parts of Asia, in Australia and New Zealand, and in most other countries of the globe. Do we miss our friends and family? Yes. Do we occasionally miss aspects of our former country? Yes. Do we plan on ever living again in the United States? Never. And those of us with permanent residence or citizenship can sponsor family members from back home for long-term visas in our adopted countries.

In closing, I want to remind you of something: unless you are an American Indian or a descendant of slaves, at some point your ancestors chose to leave their homeland in search of a better life. They weren’t traitors and they weren’t bad people, they just wanted a better life for themselves and their families. Isn’t it time that you continue their journey?

Fantastique · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:28 am

Quite an interesting read, I must say. I am an extremely well-traveled person, so much of this is no surprise to me. I have always contemplated living outside the US once I finish school (being a doctor is a universal trade, right?) but then again I've never really had any problems here. It's about 50/50 at the moment, and if I do decide to stay, hopefully I will be long gone before America's almost-inevitable-thanks-to-Republicans-and-Conservatives implosion.

Zaryi · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:35 am

this is where i whip out my european passport and the ticket i have to london for September ;P

just need to find a job

Aestu · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:35 am

Typical left-wing blather, a good argument ruined by hyperbole, exaggeration, mistruth, and eccentric red herrings. This is why the left fails.

Part of me wants to leave the US, but I also feel it is my country and my obligation to change it. Besides, as the Chinese say, "when heaven falls to earth, even fools can be kings." Being in exile isn't fun. Imposing on another nation's hospitality doesn't appeal to me. And besides, the world is grappling with the same issues, if not to the same extent.

The article's point about our ancestors is a flawed one. I would argue that people came to this country out of self-interest has always been America's fundamental weakness. Made by greed, unmade by greed. Should we perpetuate that cycle? As it happens, this does not apply to me, because my ancestors were not of the country they departed from (and did not leave in peace) - but we all now are American, like it, realize it, or not.

Ideally, I'd like to finish my business here and get enough money together to live the lifestyle of "Dr. No". I would feel more confident in engaging the world if I had a hole somewhere to retreat to.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that if I claimed Israeli citizenship, and Israel worked out its problems with the Palestinians at some point in the future (might happen in the next 25 years when the US can't afford to prop the status quo up anymore) then joined the EU, I'd become an EU citizen. But that would be unlikely to happen for another 30 years. But that would be in time for retirement...

Hm... Funny how that works.

Battletard · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:01 am

Most Americans who aren't completely fucktarded already know this.

rikkilake · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:55 am

Eh, I've always had plans of moving to Germany sometime before I retire. I just need to learn German first...

Azelma · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:13 am

I think this raises some good points, and some terrible points...which as Aestu said, are delivered with absurd hyperbole.

Anywho...just wanted to address a few things:

Quote:

you are never more than one stray comment away from writhing on the ground with two taser prongs in your ass.

Wow...really? Here let me try something.

Fuck the United States government, the military, Obama, and George Bush. They are all a bunch of traitors.

...I'll be waiting for my taser prongs in the ass...and I even put it in writing, and this site is crawled by search bots.

Quote:

If you’re from the less fortunate classes, you are also required to serve and die in their endless wars, or send your sons and daughters to do so. You have no choice in the matter: there is a socio-economic draft system in the United States that provides a steady stream of cannon fodder for the military.

True, it's mostly poor minorities in the military...but it's by no means a requirement. They just provide financial incentive/security that makes military service advantageous for someone with fewer options, or more barriers. I wonder what the socio-economic makeup of militaries in other countries is?

Also...there are still countries that have mandatory military service for any man....funny how that is left out here.

Quote:

the working class in the United States has been brutally propagandized by jackals like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity

Agreed, they are all bastards...but why list those extreme pundits? What about the extreme liberal pundits? Why just those guys...who most sane americans think are assholes? So biased.

Quote:

If change can’t come from the people or the media, the only other potential source of change would be the politicians. Unfortunately, the American political process is among the most corrupt in the world. In every country on earth, one expects politicians to take bribes from the rich. But this generally happens in secret, behind the closed doors of their elite clubs. In the United States, this sort of political corruption is done in broad daylight, as part of legal, accepted, standard operating procedure. In the United States, they merely call these bribes campaign donations, political action committees and lobbyists. One can no more expect the politicians to change this system than one can expect a man to take an axe and chop his own legs out from underneath him.

So....because our bribes occur in "public" it is SO MUCH WORSE than countries where bribes happen in secret? Pretty sure bribes are bribes and corruption is corruption..whether it's in broad daylight or in a back alleyway. It's the same end. Argument invalid.

Quote:

While the United States was running up crushing levels of debt, it was also busy shipping its manufacturing jobs and white-collar jobs overseas, and letting its infrastructure fall to pieces. Meanwhile, Asian and European countries were investing in education, infrastructure and raw materials. Even if the United States tried to rebuild a real economy (as opposed to a service/financial economy) do think American workers would ever be able to compete with the workers of China or Europe? Have you ever seen a Japanese or German factory? Have you ever met a Singaporean or Chinese worker?

I agree that this is an issue...but I always counter with 1 thing that America continues to shit on the rest of the world with.

Innovation. Specifically, business.

Where did Google start? Facebook? Apple? Microsoft? I could go on....

TUHL -- back me up on this. Where is it easier to start a company? America...or France?

Again, this is highlighting all the bad things about America...but ignoring the positives.

Quote:

Equally likely is a sudden collapse, perhaps brought about by a rapid flight from the US dollar by creditor nations like China, Japan, Korea and the OPEC nations.

WRONG!

Here's the thing...what has helped foster China's economic growth? 1) They are raping the shit out of their land for resources and 2) They manufacture shit to sell to Americans

This is fact. Americas consumption is by far the highest in the world...China, and other nations, continue to produce and we keep buying (even if it's on a credit card). So yeah China, go ahead and call in the debt (which btw is like 1% of GDP...not nearly as huge as people would have you believe), or run from the US Dollar....

tank the American economy, and see what happens to your economy when no one can afford to buy your shit anymore, and you still have a majority of your workforce too poor to ever hope to buy big ticket tech items. It would be the stupidest move ever....and anyone who doesn't understand this (the writer of this) is a fucking moron. The writer also is ignoring the fact that China props up its own currency because of its weakness.

Bottom line, mutually assured economic destruction is a real thing. Sorry kids, America's economy isn't something that the rest of the world would just be like "yeah let's call in the debt, or completely stop using the dollar and crash it...that'd be good for us"

In conclusion, some good points and concerns raised...but incredibly biased and flat out wrong in some cases. America isn't perfect, and yeah I've considered leaving her...but I'd do so with more rationality than this little rant has.

Mns · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:18 am

Just pointing out that especially with Olbermann off the air, there's literally nobody on the left that's as simultaneously extreme and popular as the Limbaugh/Hannity/Savage/Jones crowd. Fairness bias is a shitty thing that has destroyed this nation's news outlets (among other things, obviously).

Azelma · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:23 am

Mns wrote:

Just pointing out that especially with Olbermann off the air, there's literally nobody on the left that's as simultaneously extreme and popular as the Limbaugh/Hannity/Savage/Jones crowd. Fairness bias is a shitty thing that has destroyed this nation's news outlets (among other things, obviously).

Fair enough...though I'd wager that Piers Morgan is starting to gain some traction for the left.

In any event...yes biased media is an epidemic, so it's a good point.....but delivered shittily by focusing on only the right.

I'm just saying, pointing out 3 fucktards and framing it like that's the only place Americans can and do get their information is incredibly short sighted.

There's this thing called the internet....I know a fuckload of people who use it to get their news, rather than listening to conservative rants.

Aestu · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:11 pm

Azelma meets the article head-on and trounces it easily, corroborating my point: the article just isn't very good. It takes a strong position and argues it badly.

Quote:

If you’re from the less fortunate classes, you are also required to serve and die in their endless wars, or send your sons and daughters to do so. You have no choice in the matter: there is a socio-economic draft system in the United States that provides a steady stream of cannon fodder for the military.

True, it's mostly poor minorities in the military...but it's by no means a requirement. They just provide financial incentive/security that makes military service advantageous for someone with fewer options, or more barriers. I wonder what the socio-economic makeup of militaries in other countries is?

Also...there are still countries that have mandatory military service for any man....funny how that is left out here.

The article argues its point relatively well here. There is a difference between poor people choosing the military as a vocation amongst many vocations available to the poor, and choosing it because it's the ONLY vocation available to the poor, one that pays far better than it should.

Universal military service ended in the US because after Vietnam, average Americans refused to die in stupid wars, but wealthy ideologues wanted to keep waging them, so we hired a mercenary army.

Very few nations still have universal military service (Switzerland and Israel). Universal military service is preferable to a "volunteer" force because it prevents the rich and poor from conspiring to start wars, and prevents the military from becoming a class apart and at odds with civil society.

Quote:

the working class in the United States has been brutally propagandized by jackals like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity

Agreed, they are all bastards...but why list those extreme pundits? What about the extreme liberal pundits? Why just those guys...who most sane americans think are assholes? So biased.

Again, the article is at its best here and Azelma is at his worst: always splits the difference.

The answer is that America's media and politics are insanely right-wing, and the right wing has done infinitely more to sow mistruth, convince Americans to vote against their interests, and most seriously, dumbed down the level of political discourse in this country, than anything the left has done.

Quote:

If change can’t come from the people or the media, the only other potential source of change would be the politicians. Unfortunately, the American political process is among the most corrupt in the world. In every country on earth, one expects politicians to take bribes from the rich. But this generally happens in secret, behind the closed doors of their elite clubs. In the United States, this sort of political corruption is done in broad daylight, as part of legal, accepted, standard operating procedure. In the United States, they merely call these bribes campaign donations, political action committees and lobbyists. One can no more expect the politicians to change this system than one can expect a man to take an axe and chop his own legs out from underneath him.

So....because our bribes occur in "public" it is SO MUCH WORSE than countries where bribes happen in secret? Pretty sure bribes are bribes and corruption is corruption..whether it's in broad daylight or in a back alleyway. It's the same end. Argument invalid.

The article phrases its argument poorly, with unnecessary verbiage and histrionics, and without impact, and the argument, such as it is, hits Azelma (who thinks the status quo can never be wrong) neatly in his wide blind spot.

No, it is not the same end. There is a difference between paying money tit-for-tat and the money completely controlling the system as a whole. Incidental bribery is a less serious problem than a fundamentally corrupt system. Which is what we have.

Quote:

While the United States was running up crushing levels of debt, it was also busy shipping its manufacturing jobs and white-collar jobs overseas, and letting its infrastructure fall to pieces. Meanwhile, Asian and European countries were investing in education, infrastructure and raw materials. Even if the United States tried to rebuild a real economy (as opposed to a service/financial economy) do think American workers would ever be able to compete with the workers of China or Europe? Have you ever seen a Japanese or German factory? Have you ever met a Singaporean or Chinese worker?

I agree that this is an issue...but I always counter with 1 thing that America continues to shit on the rest of the world with. Innovation. Specifically, business. Where did Google start? Facebook? Apple? Microsoft? I could go on.... TUHL -- back me up on this. Where is it easier to start a company? America...or France? Again, this is highlighting all the bad things about America...but ignoring the positives.

Azelma's argument seems strong, but it really isn't.

America is a strong innovator because it has a strong currency. As a result, it is easy to buy cheap manufactured goods for the purpose of innovation and attract high-paid workers to live here, and it is easier to demand high prices for products that are new and therefore without alternative. Take away that strong currency and you take away the innovation. America would no longer have any advantage over the EU or India.

We already see this happening; a lot of tech start-ups are happening abroad because America's high-capital economy has become so totally overinflated with land capitalization.

The reality is, most Americans, most people - including Azelma and the industry he works in - aren't innovators. Most people, now as always, rely on established industries to provide both their employment and the goods and services they need.

Facebook and Google have never employed more than a few thousand people, may or may not be profitable, and probably don't contribute more tax revenue than it costs in government administrative support.

Azelma's argument only seems rational because of the media amplifying and distorting flashes in the pan. Just because a few internet innovations are a big deal and everyone uses them, doesn't mean that such things are a solid basis for an entire economy.

Quote:

Equally likely is a sudden collapse, perhaps brought about by a rapid flight from the US dollar by creditor nations like China, Japan, Korea and the OPEC nations.

WRONG!

Here's the thing...what has helped foster China's economic growth? 1) They are raping the shit out of their land for resources and 2) They manufacture shit to sell to Americans

This is fact. Americas consumption is by far the highest in the world...China, and other nations, continue to produce and we keep buying (even if it's on a credit card). So yeah China, go ahead and call in the debt (which btw is like 1% of GDP...not nearly as huge as people would have you believe), or run from the US Dollar....

tank the American economy, and see what happens to your economy when no one can afford to buy your shit anymore, and you still have a majority of your workforce too poor to ever hope to buy big ticket tech items. It would be the stupidest move ever....and anyone who doesn't understand this (the writer of this) is a fucking moron. The writer also is ignoring the fact that China props up its own currency because of its weakness.

Bottom line, mutually assured economic destruction is a real thing. Sorry kids, America's economy isn't something that the rest of the world would just be like "yeah let's call in the debt, or completely stop using the dollar and crash it...that'd be good for us"

Azelma easily spots the biggest mistake the article makes.

The correct answer is that China will stop playing the game not when it decides to call in the debt (it won't, for the reasons Azelma stated), but when its own people get fed up with the consequences - with pollution and political tyranny and getting a much lower standard of living than their work entitles them to.

That, or the game will collapse under the weight of its own arithmetic - the numbers will just get so huge, the economic fluctuations so intense, the contradictions so irrational, that the result will be a 1929-style meltdown. Classic Marxist endgame: all capitalist economies must ultimately end in economic stasis when monopolization of capital is achieved and economic surpluses can therefore no longer be capitalized.

Either way, the status quo clearly isn't sustainable. China and the rest of the world won't play the game forever. For ecological and moral reasons, that's for the best.

-------------------------------

Both the article and Azelma's counter miss the salient points of our situation.

The bottom line is, the rich are getting richer (and more powerful), and the poor are getting poorer (and weaker). Life in America is getting harder and more hardscrabble. Costs for food, water, fuel, telecom, rent, education, financial services, you name it, are going up and up with no check and no end in sight, because the rich control the game, because they own everything of value and are organized to resist political efforts to even the playing field.

The government's response has been to pump out more fiat dollars to buy up mortgage derivatives. They are trying to reinflate the housing bubble so that expensive homesteads can continue to finance a service/import consumption-based economy. This has temporarily made the situation a very little better, but will only make the incipient problems of overcapitalization, rising cost of living and economic stasis worse in the long run.

"Innovation" won't let you homestead or start your own gas or telecom company. Realistically, if you are born with no property, you will die with none, and to get by in this country on minimum wage in most areas, you must have a sub-zero savings rate.

Facebook and such can't and won't change that.

Usdk · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:39 pm

The left never pulled anything so glorious as getting rid of olberman.

If only the right could follow suit with their looneys.

Callysta · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:32 pm

I want my 90 seconds back.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

Azelma · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:25 pm

Agreed with pretty much everything you said Aestu. I do believe the article comes from a place of sense...and has good points, but executes them quite poorly and in some cases, wrongly.

My one beef:

Quote:

America is a strong innovator because it has a strong currency. As a result, it is easy to buy cheap manufactured goods for the purpose of innovation and attract high-paid workers to live here, and it is easier to demand high prices for products that are new and therefore without alternative. Take away that strong currency and you take away the innovation. America would no longer have any advantage over the EU or India.

We already see this happening; a lot of tech start-ups are happening abroad because America's high-capital economy has become so totally overinflated with land capitalization.

The reality is, most Americans, most people - including Azelma and the industry he works in - aren't innovators. Most people, now as always, rely on established industries to provide both their employment and the goods and services they need.

Facebook and Google have never employed more than a few thousand people, may or may not be profitable, and probably don't contribute more tax revenue than it costs in government administrative support.

Azelma's argument only seems rational because of the media amplifying and distorting flashes in the pan. Just because a few internet innovations are a big deal and everyone uses them, doesn't mean that such things are a solid basis for an entire economy.

I think you can make that argument about any company ever. Aside from a brand new invention...most all companies use existing resources/technologies to create new products or services and generate wealth. I guess for me, that constitutes innovation. Google is innovative because of what they were able to do with search algorithms and their PPC advertising model. Microsoft was innovative with the licensed OS.

To your other point, about it being only a few thousand people, and questionable taxes...true, though I would say it's not insignificant. My biggest counter would be that many American companies still direct the global pool of money to American shores through the stock market.

All those rich oil tycoons in the middle east, all this global wealth...much of it still lands in America as shares of Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. The fact that the Mortgage crisis was able to suck so much cash out of the global pool of money shows how much sway American business and financial markets still have. This isn't necessarily a good thing (as you pointed most of this wealth ends up with the rich)...but still is fact.

Finally, you did not address my point about the ease of starting a business (specifically an LLC) in America versus other countries. You can argue all day that the businesses started are shitty, derivative, and not innovative...but the fact that in America more businesses will be started than anywhere else leaves a much greater chance for a successful one. Agreed, the money needs to be there for investment, but business prosperity has always relied on nerds setting up shop in their garages or basements. Other countries have more restrictive laws and regulations on starting businesses, and I think this holds them back.

Yuratuhl · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:27 pm

Aestu and I were talking about this yesterday, not specifically in an American sphere.

We have the capacity to provide for every human being on the planet. We don't because of two things: insufficient distribution systems, and a belief that money should exist.
Which isn't to say that I categorically reject the notion of personal wealth. But when some of the things built up on money are power (I mean electricity), living space, and food, there's a pretty blatant problem.

Don't tell me this is an unrealizable utopian dream. Factory farms, field automation, rapid rail/air transit, the existence of nuclear power, and a very large planet (most of which is sparsely populated) taken together mean we've invented all the problems we think we face as a species.

(and yes Azelma, it's easier to start a company here. Especially in Delaware. It's not exactly difficult to do so in France though. Perhaps an autocracy would have better made your point?)

Azelma · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Yuratuhl wrote:

We have the capacity to provide for every human being on the planet. We don't because of two things: insufficient distribution systems, and a belief that money should exist.
Which isn't to say that I categorically reject the notion of personal wealth. But when some of the things built up on money are power (I mean electricity), living space, and food, there's a pretty blatant problem.

Don't tell me this is an unrealizable utopian dream. Factory farms, field automation, rapid rail/air transit, the existence of nuclear power, and a very large planet (most of which is sparsely populated) taken together mean we've invented all the problems we think we face as a species.

I agree - we do have the capacity, if we were ever smart enough to control these instincts. My question is too, could it ever occur in reality? And if it did...would it continue to work?

It's a question of human nature. I think that, while humans are social beings...inherently, in our genes, there is a selfishness (maybe not even limited to your personal self...but your family, or your tribe..."us versus them"). We observe this in chimps and their brutal tactics when in competition with other groups. I believe it is in our very DNA to be competitive with other humans (either nationally, family group, or even 1 on 1). I believe that as long as there are limited resources, we will compete for them.

Remove money from the equation...I think conflict still exists. There will be those who test boundaries and try to get away with doing less work. There will be those who want more than they have. I believe it would be like this in a vacuum. Even if we had unlimited resources...we'd all be fed and clothed and warm...and people would still want more. Why did first Matrix fail? It was too perfect. To be human is to be thirsty...when you are quenched, you get bored. I don't see evidence that shows me this won't hold true for a majority of people.

And even if it WASN'T in a vacuum...I think that only increases the odds of it not working. Capitalism / consumption are so fundamental to all of us...yes even the socialist Europeans have this competitive/money/got mine edge to them. It may not be as extreme as an American's...but it's there, and don't try to tell me it's not.

Look at China's fake communism.....human nature is built on competition and survival. Money just added the evil of excess. I think even if you removed money altogether, it'd still be an issue. Those with the resources would take advantage of them. You cannot remove power, humanity will always seek it...if there's power to be had, the corrupt will obtain it and exploit it.

Do you think government would fix it? I don't. I believe even if you removed money from politics, people would still be able to harm others. Unless you can make sure Buddha and Jesus are resurrected and the only people in charge.....some bad apples would get their hands on power. They'd exploit it.

I have no evidence that humanity has the ability to overlook power opportunities for the sake of the greater good. There's probably 3 corruptible people for every honest soul.

You think this can change? Tell me how.

inb4: nihilism is a copout

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