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 Post subject: Just for discussion, here's some bullshit.
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:42 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Since we haven't been bullshitting lately, how about some hypothetical, no real right/wrong answer moral/ethical discussion.

I pulled this off of The Wall Street Journal's "Best of the Web" because I thought it was interesting.

Best of the Web wrote:
One fascinating oddity of the contemporary multicultural left is that it is devoted to the assumption that no important differences between people, and especially groups of people, are genetically determined--with one exception. Such "blank slatism" is most notable in debates over intelligence and differences between the sexes, which are claimed to be entirely the product of nurture rather than nature (although moderate lefties will sometimes concede a genetic basis for body size dimorphism).

The exception is homosexuality, which we are supposed to believe is all in the genes. (Your sex is supposedly more malleable than the sex to which you are attracted!) The position that being gay is in the DNA is expedient, since it makes it harder to object to homosexuality on moral grounds.

But we notice a bit of a crack in this dogma, and from a surprising source--the nasty partisans at ThinkProgress.org. TP's Zack Ford highlights a comment from Bryan Fischer of the American Family Association, in response to the "coming out" of basketball player Jason Collins:

Collins has an identical twin, Jaron, who was "astounded" to discover that his brother had entered into the homosexual lifestyle. He, despite sharing Jason's identical DNA, is as straight as a laser beam. Identical twins share straits [sic!] that are genetically determined: height, skin color, eye color, hair color and so forth. If homosexuality is a genetically caused sexual preference, Jaron Collins should be as gay as his brother. He's not.

Here's Ford's rebuttal:

Just because homosexuality is a bit more complex than a particular gene prescription doesn't mean Fischer's point has any validity.
The latest research suggests that variations in sexual orientation can be influenced--not by the genes themselves, but by how certain markers ("epi-marks") on the genes interact with hormones inside the womb. These epigenetic markers act as switches that can be activated during fetal development, affecting how DNA expresses itself. The end result is the same: an individual's orientation is determined before birth and cannot be changed. This actually jibes with some recent twin studies, which suggest that even identical twins who share a hormonal environment in the womb can still experience different levels of blood during development. Thus, even twins with identical DNA can have differences in how that DNA is expressed.
Ford had the better of the argument, but he got it by making an important concession: that environmental factors as well as genes play a role in determining sexual orientation. Some gene or combination of genes might have been necessary for Jason Collins to be homosexual, but it was not sufficient.


Another way of putting this is that Collins evidently had the DNA to be heterosexual but his environment, unlike his brother's, was insufficient to yield that result.

Which raises an interesting question. Suppose researchers isolated both a gene that predisposed the Collins brothers to homosexuality and a prenatal hormonal condition that caused that predisposition to manifest itself in Jason's case but not his brother. Suppose further that parents or unborn children could be tested for that gene, and mothers carrying sons who have it could be administered a hormone treatment that would reduce or eliminate the possibility of a homosexual child.

Would gay-rights groups push for outlawing such a therapy? If so, would their pro-abortion allies join the push, or would they feel compelled to stand for "reproductive rights"? If such a therapy were available, would parents forgo it given the increasing public acceptance of homosexuality? Would its popularity follow political patterns, so that conservative Southerners would opt for straight kids while liberal Northeasterners allowed nature to take its course? Or would lots of the latter group take advantage of their right to privacy and make sure their kids didn't turn out gay, not that there's anything wrong with that?


I don't want this to be a "homosexuality is evil/a sin" vs. "homosexuality is perfectly natural" conversation. I'm more interested in subtleties than the blunt bullshit.

What if we do find that homosexuality is determined by purely biological factors?

1)Would there be compelling moral or ethical reasons to stop parents from manipulating those factors to make sure their children are straight?

2)If those factors cannot be manipulated, what are the implications of parents who might choose abortion to avoid having a homosexual child?

Is there a disconnect, as the author suggests, in thinking no important differences between people, and especially groups of people, are genetically determined and are instead an outcome of their opportunities yet insisting that homosexuality is biologically determined?

Would you care if your own children were homosexual, and why?

Is it morally wrong to hope that your children aren't gay for reasons like not wanting them to face any hardships and ostracism that come with it?

Someone else needs to do this tomorrow. I'll just politic it up all the time.

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

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 Post subject: Re: Just for discussion, here's some bullshit.
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 10:08 pm  
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Personally, I believe more or less completely in blank slatism, my reasoning coming from the internet warping what I am sexually attracted, I doubt it was my genes.

Jubbergun wrote:
1)Would there be compelling moral or ethical reasons to stop parents from manipulating those factors to make sure their children are straight?


Well, Eugenics, starting with the Gay Gene, then the Christian Gene, then parents would probably try to make the perfect child using only the genes and removing the teaching factor, it might even shun the Mentally Handicapped because their parents didn't "fix" them using Preimplantation genetic diagnosis or something similar.

Jubbergun wrote:
2)If those factors cannot be manipulated, what are the implications of parents who might choose abortion to avoid having a homosexual child?


Might increase, no clue.

Jubbergun wrote:
Is there a disconnect, as the author suggests, in thinking no important differences between people, and especially groups of people, are genetically determined and are instead an outcome of their opportunities yet insisting that homosexuality is biologically determined?


Yes, while I ain't got facts to support this, I truly believe that your sexual preference, which aren't 2 options(Hetero/Homo, but at least 5(Hetero/BI/Homo/Pan/Asexual), and that they are determined from your environment. For males they are determined in their teens, that is usually when they figure what they like, but woman, are fucking complicated and can switch around.

Using this video's research as my basis for this since it made sense when it saw it in college(the video, not the guy himself)



Jubbergun wrote:
Would you care if your own children were homosexual, and why?


If I got children, no, probably would prefer them to be homosexual, no teen pregnancy in my house.

Jubbergun wrote:
Is it morally wrong to hope that your children aren't gay for reasons like not wanting them to face any hardships and ostracism that come with it?


It isn't, but then you are just trying to make their life as easy as possible, reminds me of parents who would call the school about their children when their child is already 18, like a senior in High School, or in College, those are the parents who can't let go and want it as easy as possible for their child. It isn't wrong, just not right....life is meant to have hardships, you can't know happiness without sadness and vice versa.
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 Post subject: Re: Just for discussion, here's some bullshit.
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 11:06 pm  
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 Post subject: Re: Just for discussion, here's some bullshit.
PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:06 am  
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Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:58 pm
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Jubbergun wrote:
What if we do find that homosexuality is determined by purely biological factors?


This is highly unlikely, but they may discover genes or epigenetic markers that contribute towards certain tendencies. Sexuality is a very complicated behavioral manifestation and nurture will always have a lot to do with it (like height and diet, for example, or temperament). My intuition leads me to believe that IF homosexuality has a strong genetic component, it will be a very very tiny fraction of the human population. It is a trait that should essentially have evolved out of the population over time, and is deleterious to the species.

Quote:
1)Would there be compelling moral or ethical reasons to stop parents from manipulating those factors to make sure their children are straight?

Parents using IVF already have the option to choose their child's sex. Deaf parents can elect to have Deaf children. It won't be too long before we see designer babies, and by that point the precedent will be set such that sexuality will be the least of the worries.

Quote:
2)If those factors cannot be manipulated, what are the implications of parents who might choose abortion to avoid having a homosexual child?


Although I believe they will eventually be able to be manipulated (if you assumed a biological basis in the first place), and assuming that abortion is still as widely accepted and protected as it is today, I think it will be permissible. "Let each person decide for themselves" kind of attitude will linger I think.

Quote:

Is there a disconnect, as the author suggests, in thinking no important differences between people, and especially groups of people, are genetically determined and are instead an outcome of their opportunities yet insisting that homosexuality is biologically determined?


Well, we know, for example, that race and sex are genetically determined (as far as "important differences between people" go). There is suspicion that mood, personality, intelligence, many diseases, and so on have genetic components. They could make the argument that it's just another part of who you are, no more or less important than any of those other things. "Separate but equal," as flawed as that phrase is.

Quote:
Would you care if your own children were homosexual, and why?


Yes and no. I would not wish unnecessary hardship on them. But, I really don't care who they are attracted to -- it's not like MY life is directly affected by it. I don't want kids or grandkids for that matter, but if I had kids, I'd be fine with gay/straight.

Trans on the other hand would probably make me flip my shit. But that's another issue.

Quote:

Is it morally wrong to hope that your children aren't gay for reasons like not wanting them to face any hardships and ostracism that come with it?

I hope my children aren't ugly, short, insanely tall, awkward, etc. for the same reason, so I think it's a legit argument (see above).


Alopex
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