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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:22 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I was talking from a technological standpoint, not an RP standpoint. Disgaea/Makai Kingdom would be equally apt examples.

If what's holding development of a better MMO back is cost, why not just get around that by using more primitive technology?

What if you had an MMO with WoW's scale, size, and depth, but made with 16-bit isometric graphics? It's also probably much easier to program and debug a combat system designed for an isometric world than a fully 3D one.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:55 am  
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Obama Zombie
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Are you suggesting a game like Ragnarok Online or Maple Story?

Also, how do you have a turn-based FFT/Disgaea MMO?
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 8:41 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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I haven't played either of those.

I don't necessarily think it would have to be turn-based.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:22 am  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Aestu, I love how at your center you are an idealist. Do you think in today's PS3...XBOX 1080.....crazy graphics psycho world that a 16 bit graphic MMO would have any mass success?

People still make fun of WoW's graphics for being too "cartoony"

The fact that any developer will need a massive amount of capital to even try to compete with WoW, or make the next great MMO is a barrier to entry. Scaling down the graphics would just ensure that the project wouldn't be a success.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 9:40 am  
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Obama Zombie
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Ragnarok Online is a game that was developed by a Korean company, Gravity, and it did well enough to spawn sequel... but to my knowledge, the original still fares better. Ragnarok has 2D sprites in somewhat decent 3D environments, like Disgaea. The movement and combat is based on a point-and-click method of playing. There are several starter jobs that, as you progress, can evolve into stronger jobs... eventually being reborn into a stronger job. More or less, you can make the grind from level 1-99 about three times, each time, getting way stronger. Unfortunately, the game lacks a lot of the depth of WoW. The PvP content is all about who can reduce their cast time to zero or increase their attack speed... or who can carry more potions. The rest of the game is nothing but grinding (except for the occasional "collect 1000 of this" quest, which only reward rare equipment) and the end-game content is farming free-roaming world bosses. The game has a back story but its often lost in game... kinda like WoW - I mean, who reads the quests?

Maple Story is a bit more primitive. You have 2D sprites in 2D environments. The game plays like a platformer. I can't talk for the story or end-game because I lost interest in it over time.

The reason I wanted to detail these two games is because I tried playing them again after I quit playing WoW. (I played Ragnarok through college.) Even though Ragnarok has a large world, diverse community, plenty of classes, hundreds of enemies, a story and other content like marriage systems, P-v-P and Guild-v-Guild, the game wasn't nearly as awesome as it was playing it after experiencing WoW. We're spoiled with WoW and and all it has to offer. Blizzard has too much money to throw at the game and that is why other MMOs, like Ragnarok, will never be as good. I imagine playing Ragnarok or any low budget MMO after playing any other next-gen MMO (Aion, AoC, WAR, etc.) would have the same feeling, too. I think the best analogy I can come up with is its much like buying a 1998 Honda Civic EX; Sure, it'll do the job but it'll never be as good as that Maserati you used to have.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:18 am  
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Deliciously Trashy
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Going Republic. I'll be one of like 6 people on that side.


At least we can to fend off the drooling hordes of sith together.


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:05 pm  
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Tasty Tourist
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Quote:
end-game content is farming free-roaming world bosses




I miss those


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 12:41 pm  
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Weeaboo Bardmaster
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apparently i can be an inquisitor?
INQUISITOR?

INQUISITON??????????


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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:04 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Zaryi wrote:
Yuratuhl wrote:
Going Republic. I'll be one of like 6 people on that side.


At least we can to fend off the drooling hordes of sith together.


Dreys and I will be going Republic as well.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:13 pm  
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Querulous Quidnunc
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Ragnarok Online is a game that was developed by a Korean company, Gravity, and it did well enough to spawn sequel... but to my knowledge, the original still fares better. Ragnarok has 2D sprites in somewhat decent 3D environments, like Disgaea. The movement and combat is based on a point-and-click method of playing. There are several starter jobs that, as you progress, can evolve into stronger jobs... eventually being reborn into a stronger job. More or less, you can make the grind from level 1-99 about three times, each time, getting way stronger. Unfortunately, the game lacks a lot of the depth of WoW. The PvP content is all about who can reduce their cast time to zero or increase their attack speed... or who can carry more potions. The rest of the game is nothing but grinding (except for the occasional "collect 1000 of this" quest, which only reward rare equipment) and the end-game content is farming free-roaming world bosses. The game has a back story but its often lost in game... kinda like WoW - I mean, who reads the quests?

Maple Story is a bit more primitive. You have 2D sprites in 2D environments. The game plays like a platformer. I can't talk for the story or end-game because I lost interest in it over time.

The reason I wanted to detail these two games is because I tried playing them again after I quit playing WoW. (I played Ragnarok through college.) Even though Ragnarok has a large world, diverse community, plenty of classes, hundreds of enemies, a story and other content like marriage systems, P-v-P and Guild-v-Guild, the game wasn't nearly as awesome as it was playing it after experiencing WoW. We're spoiled with WoW and and all it has to offer. Blizzard has too much money to throw at the game and that is why other MMOs, like Ragnarok, will never be as good. I imagine playing Ragnarok or any low budget MMO after playing any other next-gen MMO (Aion, AoC, WAR, etc.) would have the same feeling, too. I think the best analogy I can come up with is its much like buying a 1998 Honda Civic EX; Sure, it'll do the job but it'll never be as good as that Maserati you used to have.


A lot of those issues you describe have to do with game design, not specifically the technologies used. They are convergent in that they both serve the aim of economizing on content. It's cheaper to make a cell-shaded or 2D game than a fully 3D game in the same way it's cheaper to drag out a grind indefinitely rather than make a new level.

WoW doesn't have the grindiness of Korean MMOs like those because of the level cap and fixed classes. Vertical progression IS the game, and it's very gameplay-dense at each level.

My idea was to exploit the former to advance the latter.
I think a game could be made most economically by using primitive graphics and broad horizontal progression with vertical truncation.

Rather than grinding another 100 levels, or reincarnating, there would be enormously parallel tiers of content. Because of the cheap design, they could be brought out in short order - a new instance every two weeks, even - and be very heavily reliant on developer creativity for content. Game balance and character growth would be based around this parallelism and min-maxxing that revolves around permutations.

When I say "permutations", think Armored Core.
When I say "parallelism", think running sitcoms that you sit down for once a week, to see the latest installment. In a video game setting, this would mean endless sidequests and dungeons that drop some new novelty, or with console-like dialogues, like in Star Ocean.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 2:04 pm  
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Old Conservative Faggot
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Ennkey wrote:
apparently i can be an inquisitor?
INQUISITOR?

INQUISITON??????????


Dare I say that....NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!

Your Pal,
Jubber


AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 3:32 pm  
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French Faggot
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I saw Star Ocean mentioned and immediately began to seethe with hatred, not because I dislike the game directly (I've never played it) but because the fucking combat music would wake me up at 7 am every goddamn day my first semester second year. Random roommates can get AIDS.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:14 pm  
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Tasty Tourist
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 3:48 pm
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Tuhl, BSG > all.

Also, Republic obviously. Black robes don't conduct the current of justice.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:19 pm  
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Feckless Fool
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 5:15 pm
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Yuratuhl wrote:
I saw Star Ocean mentioned and immediately began to seethe with hatred, not because I dislike the game directly (I've never played it) but because the tickling combat music would wake me up at 7 am every goddamn day my first semester second year. Random roommates can get AIDS.


Bro, don't hate on Motoi Sakuraba :(

...

Though, your roommate sounded pretty gay.


Cindered
Another Cindered

A penny put in a jar is a penny not put in my nose.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 4:30 pm  
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French Faggot
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Dreys wrote:
Tuhl, BSG > all.

Also, Republic obviously. Black robes don't conduct the current of justice.


Republic Soldier. Gun beats sword.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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