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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:16 pm  
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A lot of the people who disagree using the slippery slope argument are probably religious/influenced by the idea that man (or woman) has no right to tamper with life. They're just using a thin veil to mask their true feelings to avoid being labeled as such.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 1:47 pm  
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quadtard wrote:
A lot of the people who disagree using the slippery slope argument are probably religious/influenced by the idea that man (or woman) has no right to tamper with life. They're just using a thin veil to mask their true feelings to avoid being labeled as such.


Some - not all.

Common sense would suggest caution given how many scientific developments have backfired because humans overestimated their level of understanding.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:38 pm  
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You mean like machine guns vs 19th century tactics?

Generally speaking, I have a hard time taking doomsayers seriously, because they're the same retards who think the Hadron Collider is going to kill us all.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:46 pm  
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Fun story about machine guns. in WW1 germany had 10X as many machine guns as britain because the british high command thought that using them on europeans would be "ungentlemanly/not-sporting" but they saw no problem in using them on indiginous peoples in their colonies.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 3:32 pm  
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Yuratuhl wrote:
You mean like machine guns vs 19th century tactics?

No one foresaw that indiscriminate use of antibiotics would cause the evolution of bacteria immune to treatment.

No one foresaw that substances which were thought to be innocuous such as antimony or thalidomide or DDT or MBTE would prove much more dangerous than what they replaced.

No one foresaw that heroin and methamphetamine would prove even more addictive and destructive than the addictions they were developed to cure.

No one foresaw that making everything out of plastic would cause problems because it's not biodegradable.

No one foresaw that building dams and redirecting water supplies would cause severe water shortages and dry lakes.

No one foresaw that industrialized fishing would prove that, in fact, there is not always another fish in the sea.

No one foresaw how dangerous radiation would prove to be - and so now we spend many times the revenue from early experiments on cleaning them up.

No one foresaw the ways in which various changes to society driven by technology and liberalism would threaten the viability of human society in the very long term.

No one foresaw that late motherhood and assisted pregnancy would cause a rise in marginally viable children.

We should learn to be cautious. Not go back to living in huts - but be cautious.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:50 pm  
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No one foresaw peanut's being used as a source of food.

No one foresaw Corn being used as a fuel source.

No one foresaw mold that grew on cheese being able to cure multiple bacterial infections.

No one foresaw Gearscore being created and the sudden idea that Gear = Skill.

No one foresaw our poop becoming a source of fuel.

No one foresaw out farts/the chemicals in our farts becoming a source of fuel.

No one foresaw pie plates turning into Frisbee's.

No one foresaw post it notes, being created by accident.

No one foresaw Lightbulbs being made out of tungsten instead of bamboo.


REASON BEING: IT'S CALLED THE FUTURE, IF WE SPENT ALL OUR TIME THINKING ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND WHAT COULD HAPPEN WE WOULD BE BACK IN THE STONE AGE. MAKE SHIT, SEE WAT HAPPENS THEN FIX IT.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:45 pm  
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Part of learning as a species means making mistakes. No one may have foreseen anything in that list, but now that we do know, corrective action can be taken, and the collective knowledge of humanity has grown.

Now that we're aware of resistant bacteria, new methods of dealing with infections are being produced/researched. Antibiotic rationing is already happening, and new vaccines are being produced to bolster our immune systems from common bacteria.

Antimony and thalidomide are no longer used, DDT has been almost globally banned, and MBTE is still being studied as to it's actual effects outside of contaminating drinking water.

Heroin and meth are now illegal after their effects have been seen. Clinics and rehabilitation centers have been established all over to help people fight their addictions.

Recycling gains more and more ground every year in reusing plastics over producing more, reducing non-biodegradable waste.

I just saw a program on National Geographic about an old dam in Washington State that was blown up to help salmon swim upstream to spawn. While there are still dams that cause problems, in many cases solutions are in the works, unless you're in China, where they still have some learning to do about cause and effect. Here in the States, we have the USGS to keep an eye on rivers and dams, to make sure things work as they should.

Hatcheries and laws limiting how many of certain fish can be caught are helping to curb overfishing. Species close to endangerment have more protections to keep them in the water, out of fishing nets.

We know how dangerous radiation is now, and precautions are taken on new nuclear research. The potential benefits of nuclear energy far outweigh any cost of experimentation.

Plenty of people can and do see the long term effects of technology and liberalism on society. What is more difficult is getting the powers that be, and the masses to understand. Mass media is both the cause of and solution to any sort of widespread social pandemonium. The changes are still very much in progress as social networking evolves and integrates with everyday life. The hope is that at some point people will wake up, become aware of the world around them, start asking questions and actively seek answers, rather than be spoon fed "news" from major networks.

Any rise in marginally viable children likely isn't directly related to assisted pregnancy or late motherhood, but more the result of unwanted pregnancies. Nothing is more detrimental to the development of a child than a deep seeded subconscious resentment or hatred on the mother's part. Children seen as "mistakes" or reminders of the time they got drunk at a party and slept with 3 guys at once, or the time the condom broke, or whatever circumstances led to unexpected fertilization. In cases where the father takes responsibility and helps to raise the child, there is a far better chance the kid will be fine. In other cases where the father is a deadbeat, or skips town, the child will likely have a very difficult time.

Caution and prudence have their place, but moving forward sometimes requires taking risks. When a risk pays off, everyone wins. When it doesn't, we learn from it and apply it to the next risk.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 5:54 pm  
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CentauriFox wrote:
Moving forward sometimes requires taking risks. When a risk pays off, everyone wins. When it doesn't, we learn from it and apply it to the next risk.


Every example you gave consists of nothing more than corrective action against that specific mistake.

When it comes to technology, people have never learned to apply the learning experience of prior errors to future risks.


Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:25 pm  
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cziiki wrote:
REASON BEING: IT'S CALLED THE FUTURE, IF WE SPENT ALL OUR TIME THINKING ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND WHAT COULD HAPPEN WE WOULD BE BACK IN THE STONE AGE. MAKE SHIT, SEE WAT HAPPENS THEN FIX IT.


lol

that would be science not using the scientific method.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:28 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
CentauriFox wrote:
Moving forward sometimes requires taking risks. When a risk pays off, everyone wins. When it doesn't, we learn from it and apply it to the next risk.


Every example you gave consists of nothing more than corrective action against that specific mistake.

When it comes to technology, people have never learned to apply the learning experience of prior errors to future risks.


Because with science there is no building upon previous experiences because everything reacts and acts differently based upon circumstances and times. I suppose you could say "Well Nuclear bomb was invented and we bombed the crap out of them without knowing the long term, ergo this new plastic composite seems like it could do the same if deconstructed and remodeled.

Main point saying "people have never learned to apply the learning experience of prior errors to future risks", thats gibberish because nothing new is equal to something old. So there is no telling what could happen with any given idea in any given situation.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:43 pm  
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I'm going to take a page out of Laelia's avatar with this quandry:

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While there, Esk witnesses the progress of an apprentice wizard named Simon, whom she had met earlier, on her way to Ankh-Morpork. Simon is a natural talent who invents a whole new way of looking at the universe that reduces it to component numbers. His magic, however, is so powerful that it causes a hole to be opened into the Dungeon Dimensions.


Sometimes, truth is stranger than fiction.

Everything in this universe is the same, just in scale. Atoms to solar systems. Your neural network to the pathing of galaxies.

Don't fuck with creation.

It fucks back.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:30 pm  
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Meh, if we were not meant to test the laws and science of the universe would not some power intervened when free will became apparent? Thus is the legacy of man, test the limits while never looking back...trodding forth though galaxy upon galaxy, universe upon universe, era upon era, until our unquenchable thirst for knowledge and power has consumed ourself and we as a species evolve to a more advanced society.

There will never be peace or an end to the problems that plague the earth as long as free will exists, because by the will of man all others shall fall and one shall rise forth. We may chose to disguise this motive through actions that appear to be in other interest, or for the sake of society, but are truely only for our personal gain, because only through making other appear weak through help to we ourselves as a collective species make ourselves appear stronger.

So Tehra, regarding the issue of limits and "nature fucking back", unless perhaps free will by extension was in the creation of man as both a hinderance to what he can achieve and what he could have achieved, limits are made to be tested and broken. Because through the testing of limits and laws, this is the only way we as a society, nay as a species can find out where we lie in this infinite and expansive space we call life. So i ask not for everyone to full read or comprehend all the matters stated above but to understand that, limits are made to be tested in order to understand our true potential as both a species of warriors and as a species of peacemakers.

PS: to those of you who actually read all the above text, i applaud you both as a scholar and a gentlemen, and i look forward to hearing your responses upon the ideals myself and my colleagues share regarding the topic at hand.


LOL LARPING AS A INTELLEGENT MINDED CIVILIAN. DUUUUUUUUUUUUUR


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:33 pm  
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cziiki wrote:
Meh, if we were not meant to test the laws and science of the universe would not some power intervened when free will became apparent? Thus is the legacy of man, test the limits while never looking back...trodding forth though galaxy upon galaxy, universe upon universe, era upon era, until our unquenchable thirst for knowledge and power has consumed ourself and we as a species evolve to a more advanced society.

There will never be peace or an end to the problems that plague the earth as long as free will exists, because by the will of man all others shall fall and one shall rise forth. We may chose to disguise this motive through actions that appear to be in other interest, or for the sake of society, but are truely only for our personal gain, because only through making other appear weak through help to we ourselves as a collective species make ourselves appear stronger.

So Tehra, regarding the issue of limits and "nature fucking back", unless perhaps free will by extension was in the creation of man as both a hinderance to what he can achieve and what he could have achieved, limits are made to be tested and broken. Because through the testing of limits and laws, this is the only way we as a society, nay as a species can find out where we lie in this infinite and expansive space we call life. So i ask not for everyone to full read or comprehend all the matters stated above but to understand that, limits are made to be tested in order to understand our true potential as both a species of warriors and as a species of peacemakers.

PS: to those of you who actually read all the above text, i applaud you both as a scholar and a gentlemen, and i look forward to hearing your responses upon the ideals myself and my colleagues share regarding the topic at hand.


LOL LARPING AS A INTELLEGENT MINDED CIVILIAN. DUUUUUUUUUUUUUR



resubmit for reevaluation with less tripe.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:40 pm  
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Aestu wrote:
Yuratuhl wrote:
You mean like machine guns vs 19th century tactics?

No one foresaw that substances which were thought to be innocuous such as antimony or thalidomide or DDT or MBTE would prove much more dangerous than what they replaced.

Banning DDT did more to harm people in third world countries than it did to save the environment...especially since the book, Silent Spring, exaggerated the claims of damage. While banning DDT in industrialized countries was likely a necessary step, banning it in Africa was a boneheaded move that allowed the unchecked spread of malaria and other diseases spread by insect pests like mosquitoes.

The dangers of MBTE were also exaggerated, especially by agricultural interests pushing to replace it with ethanol, a move that has not only increased the price of fuels, but also impacted the price of foods, especially those that were staples in economically depressed Central American countries, because it is manufactured by said agricultural concerns with crops usually used for food, as opposed to using other plants like scrub grasses.

In other words, the solutions to problems in a lot of cases cause problems themselves, though not necessarily worse problems than the ones they solved.

Quote:
No one foresaw that heroin and methamphetamine would prove even more addictive and destructive than the addictions they were developed to cure.


Heroin and meth weren't developed to treat addictions. Heroin is a derivative of opium that was used as a painkiller, though it did replace morphine in cough medicines because it was supposed to be less addictive. Among the long list of ailments meth was supposed to treat, the only thing related to addiction was alcoholism, and I doubt anyone saw meth as being an alcohol "substitute." This is aside from the fact that it is commonly accepted that addictions can only be treated, not, as you say, "cured."


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No one foresaw that making everything out of plastic would cause problems because it's not biodegradable.

Everything degrades, even if it doesn't "bio"degrade. It just takes some things longer than others. Plastic is still superior to glass because it doesn't break and cut the hell out of your children. Not to mention that methods to recycle both glass and plastic have been developed that reduce the amount of both kinds of waste.

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No one foresaw that building dams and redirecting water supplies would cause severe water shortages and dry lakes.

Yeah, they did, but they did it anyway and claim ignorance.

Quote:
No one foresaw that industrialized fishing would prove that, in fact, there is not always another fish in the sea.

As certain types of fish become more scarce, the price for them goes up. As the price goes up, more people are priced out of eating it. At a certain point, fishing it becomes unprofitable. Other types of fish take the place of the overfished populations, and the damaged populations have an opportunity to recover.

Quote:
No one foresaw how dangerous radiation would prove to be - and so now we spend many times the revenue from early experiments on cleaning them up.

I doubt anyone foresaw the devastation fire could cause, either, but we worked that out, and seem to be doing pretty well with it.

Quote:
No one foresaw the ways in which various changes to society driven by technology and liberalism would threaten the viability of human society in the very long term.

Funny, but technology continues to make things better as far as I can tell. Then again, I'm one of those nuts that thinks smog is better than having to have horseshit scraped off the street eight times a day while the town smells like shit. As for no one foreseeing the dangers of liberalism, I'm pretty sure that there have been more than a few "lol@foxnews" posts done by our contributors to disprove that idea.

Quote:
No one foresaw that late motherhood and assisted pregnancy would cause a rise in marginally viable children.

I'm pretty sure the dangers of older women having children was well documented even before women started putting off having kids until they were wrinkled prunes, since it was not uncommon for women to just continually squeeze the things out to keep up a steady stream of farm-hands.

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We should learn to be cautious. Not go back to living in huts - but be cautious.

Just looking at the kind of shit that has to be done before a new drug can be tested on people, much less before it can be approved to treat anything, which is exemplary of our modern "cautiousness," I'd say we've got caution down. What we need to do is figure out how to get callow media-saturated half-wits to stop going into apoplectic fight-or-flight responses every time Brian Williams does an "OH SHIT, THIS COULD BE THE APOCALYPSE, SOMEONE FOUND .000000074% LEAD IN A TOY" story.

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Last edited by Jubbergun on Sun May 23, 2010 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 8:40 pm  
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Quote:
resubmit for reevaluation with less tripe.


bawww, but i actually used mah big kid gramar and spelling book thing....and mah brain. And where did i mention fish in mah post?


Engi-nerd


Last edited by cziiki on Sun May 23, 2010 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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