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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 11:14 am  
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Twittering Twat
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Laelia wrote:
The plural of anecdote is not data, and physical distance is irrelevant to my ability to read statistics. If I wanted to know what the subjective quality of life was like in Texas, sure I would ask you. If I wanted to know what the 20-year trends in crime rates were, I would check a police database designed to answer that question, since the few crimes an individual is likely to experience during that period would be meaningless to the overall trend. You made some very specific claims about the harm illegal immigrants pose. To summarize:

1) Unavailability or difficulty in accessing health care and social services
2) Local tax increases
3) Loss of jobs and decreased wages
4) Increase in crime and drugs
5) Increased traffic and dangerous drivers
6) Fewer classes in local schools due to requirements for ESL classes
7) Decreased property values

All of these can be demonstrated with statistics, and for the most part can't be adequately examined based on anecdotes. Many places have experienced these things, and illegal immigration is by no means the only possible cause. I posted links earlier to 2 peer-reviewed papers suggesting that on the whole, illegal immigration has a positive beneficial economic impact on the US. Surely if what you believe is true there should be comparable data supporting your point. Even you can't prove causality, I would accept that your point is reasonable if you can show a correlation between the population of illegal immigrants and the specific harms you mention. This is such a hot issue in the US that it's hard to believe nobody has done some actual research on the issue.


Before my neighborhood went central american..

There were no wanted flyers posted at bus stops - Apparently the criminal would grab and rape at knife point random women. Hispanic 5'8 170lbs wore white tshirt and jeans. The picture was lol.

There were no streetwalkers or craigslist whores

There werent many 'altered' pos cars.

I could talk to my neighbors.

People didnt have three families or more in a house. Currently there are nine cars parked at a house two doors down to me. It's one thing to have a get together, but these people all live there.

There werent any authentic mexican cuisine food delivery places in the neighborhood, cause like it's residential. There was one running out of a kitchen. Theyd post their menus on the bus stop. Their prices werent very competitive. They'd dump their old grease in a park nearby.

Something that was awesomely funny was the Nielsen ratings guy event.
He was a big burly black man in a crown victoria. He would pull into driveways and knock on the door. The people two houses down from me thought he was the law and all ran out the back and went over the fence.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 11:42 am  
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Get Off My Lawn!
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In before Yarl's anecdotes mean nothing here unless he can produce some agenda-fueled statistical data specifically detailing that the negative changes in his neighborhood are caused by illegal immigrants. Sorry, Yarl.


Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 12:00 pm  
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Blathering Buffoon
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since living in El Paso, San Antonio, Austin, Killeen, Lubbock, and Ft. Worth, i've been into 4 car accidents. all 4 of them were not my fault and all 4 people who hit me were uninsured hispanic folk. but i don't have statistics so it didn't happen.


Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves proud because they had no claws.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 2:01 pm  
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Obtuse Oaf
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Boredalt wrote:
Yarl's anecdotes mean nothing



I figured you'd be smarter than that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 2:54 pm  
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French Faggot
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Should we ignore that the Lone Star Foundation is a self-proclaimed conservative "think-tank," or should we dismiss it as having an agenda the same way you're all willing to dismiss Laelia's sources?


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:10 pm  
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Get Off My Lawn!
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Should we ignore that the Lone Star Foundation is a self-proclaimed conservative "think-tank," or should we dismiss it as having an agenda the same way you're all willing to dismiss Laelia's sources?


I freely admitted that I don't trust statistics. Quoting me: "I'm sure you'll dispute this article, regardless of it's documentation. That's the problem with relying on statistics. Statistics usually come from outside sources with agendas. There's a famous saying I'm sure you're familiar with: 'There are three ways to not tell the truth: Lies, damned lies, and statistics.'" I never posted stats until forced to do so, and I still don't like them. Why? Because they're bullshit. Unless you put the numbers together yourself, it is foolish to trust them.

Give me testimony from people living on the front lines, every time.


Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:36 pm  
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French Faggot
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Testimony is inherently skewed though, because the only stories you get are the ones from people who have strong opinions or personal anecdotes. Statistics include everyone, and are ultimately far more reliable.

I recognize that empathy is a nice thing to have, but statisticians actually have math degrees and know what they're doing.


If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:10 pm  
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Blathering Buffoon
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85% of statistics are made up on the spot


Verily, I have often laughed at weaklings who thought themselves proud because they had no claws.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:22 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Semantics are fun.

Back to the point - Illegals are illegal.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:25 pm  
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Twittering Twat
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Yuratuhl wrote:
Testimony is inherently skewed though, because the only stories you get are the ones from people who have strong opinions or personal anecdotes. Statistics include everyone, and are ultimately far more reliable.

I recognize that empathy is a nice thing to have, but statisticians actually have math degrees and know what they're doing.


as a person who works with PhD's i can tell you they arent special

to your statistics include everyone = bunk

your data collection set is set by you

for proof i point you to the Rasmussen polls

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

by your post:

obama has a low approval rating (only 45% approve),
everyone was included,
therefore he should be replaced, since more than half of all the people in the US thinks he is doing a bad job
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:45 pm  
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I live in Texas, I've lived in San Antonio and various places in and around Fort Worth. I chose to attend a mostly hispanic public high school instead of a 90% white private catholic high school. When I was 16, I had been driving for less than a month when I got rear ended at a stoplight by an uninsured hispanic driver with a kid in front seat not wearing a seatbelt. He begged me not to call the police but someone at a business across the highway made the call. By the time the police got there someone had come and taken the child away.

I think Arizona's new laws are pretty stupid, and I think they encourage racial profiling. In the end though, what matters is how it is enforced. Maybe it'll be appropriately handled. Maybe it won't. All you need is a few dickhead backcountry lawmen abusing the law and harassing legitimate citizens-- but at least then the lawsuits will start and the legal ball will get rolling faster.

As far as immigration is concerned, legal or illegal, it's not like these people are coming into the country to ruin your life. For whatever reason, they've come here so they can live. They're working, working shitty jobs for even shittier pay, and supporting themselves and their families. They don't come to this country because they want to see how long they can make it without paying taxes. They don't wake up one day and say "HEY MAN! Wanna go risk dehydration, starvation, imprisonment and our families so we can hop the border and go live in the USA and get paid like $3 an hour and work construction 15 hours a day?? WE WONT HAVE TO PAY TAXES LOL".

As long as they're not criminals, give them citizenship. They can be employed legally and make legal wages and pay taxes and use government services the way they were intended to be used. That makes everyone happy. Except the jerks; they're never happy with anything.


Akiina - Priest - Royal Militia
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There's no worse feeling than that millisecond you're sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:49 pm  
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Akiina wrote:
As long as they're not criminals, give them citizenship.
They are criminals for being here illegally. Also, giving them citizenship for doing things wrong is a slap in the face to all those who are going through the citizenship process, patiently waiting for the application to be approved.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:54 pm  
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Eturnalshift wrote:
Akiina wrote:
As long as they're not criminals, give them citizenship.
They are criminals for being here illegally. Also, giving them citizenship for doing things wrong is a slap in the face to all those who are going through the citizenship process, patiently waiting for the application to be approved.

k. Lets round them all up and torture them until AMERICA feels like they've paid for their horrible crimes against us, then put them all on a boat and throw them off in international waters so they're not our problem anymore. Then we can all go back to jacking off to our free internet porn and eating mcdonalds and worrying about everyone else that's out to get us. Those fucking bastards.


Akiina - Priest - Royal Militia
Leeloo Minai Lekarariba-Laminai-Tchai Ekbat De Sebat

There's no worse feeling than that millisecond you're sure you are going to die after leaning your chair back a little too far.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:49 pm  
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Boredalt wrote:
http://www.lonestarfoundation.org/The%20Cost%20of%20Illegal%20Immigration%20to%20Texas.doc


I'm sure you'll dispute this article, regardless of it's documentation. That's the problem with relying on statistics. Statistics usually come from outside sources with agendas. There's a famous saying I'm sure you're familiar with: "There are three ways to not tell the truth: Lies, damned lies, and statistics."

But with all of our point and counterpoint of the minutiae related to the impact on this problem, no statistic you can cite gets around one fundamental truth you've already ceded: These people are knowingly breaking the law. Therefore they have no right to complain about the consequences of their actions, and the citizens who have to live with this have every right to ask them to leave.


Well finally you have a bit of evidence to support your position. There are a few dubious assumptions in that document, but for the sake of argument I'll accept that the data is reasonable. It shows that there are some financial costs to having a higher population in the state than there would be without illegal immigrants. That's certainly true, although it doesn't address most of the complaints you brought up in your earlier post. Sticking with this issue however, it seems to ignore most of the economic benefits that balance out these costs. Illegal immigrants aren't passive absorbers of education and social services - they work, they buy stuff, they pay rent. Apart from their immigration status their role in the economy is the same as that of citizens. Why then can Texas afford to provide schools and social services for citizens, but not for illegal immigrants?

As for the unreliability of statistics, that's simply a ridiculous position to take. I have never been the victim of a violent crime, nor have I ever witnessed one. Should I conclude from this that violence doesn't exist? I will earn more money this year than I have in any previous year. Is it reasonable to assume from this single data point that the economy is booming like never before?
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:55 pm  
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Obama Zombie
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Don't be daft. You said you would give the illegals citizenship if they weren't criminals however, without citizenship, they're criminals. To entertain your idea, how would we even know who gets citizenship and who doesn't? First, to employ that method, don't you need to know who is illegal and who isn't? Don't you have to have a process of checking their backgrounds to ensure you're not granting citizenship to some scumbag? It almost sounds like we should send them home, have them apply for citizenship, check their background and then grant them citizenship if everything checks out.

Gotcha.
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