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EDIT, accidently deleted my second point, totally makes no sense without it.

Maybe it's all the hate and rage I've been not-so-quietly living with lately...but I kind of like this idea.

J/K...there are people I'd like to do this too, though.

If someone breaks into your house, but they're not they're not there to steal anything or "doing anything illegal," is that OK, too? Because it's essentially the same the same thing: You're someplace you're legally not supposed to be, regardless of your intentions.

I haven't met any of these diabolical people that you believe want to "torture" these people. I do hear a lot of people complaining about the problems that come along with these "people who have no criminal intentions." It has been an enormous drain on resources in the southwest. Hospitals and clinics have closed because they're obligated to treat anyone that comes through the door, but then these "people who have no criminal intentions" don't pick up the tab. Who does? Nobody. Boom: Economic Impact.

I could go on, but this is like trying to convince people that Tom Cruise is straight.

This is not withstanding how many criminals come along with these "people who have no criminal intentions," or, as I previously mentioned, the exploitation of these "people who have no criminal intentions."

Round them up? Good idea.
Torture them? To what end?
Put them on a boat? If it's heading back to Mexico, go for it.

Then we can discuss getting them back, which I'm all for doing. We can discuss how we integrate them into our society, the same as we did with other non-English speaking populations like the Polish and Italians. We can discuss how many people can come at a time. We can discuss infrastructure and public services to support the influx of legal immigrants. We can discuss in detail every little detail, hopefully in a short period of time, make a plan, and make it work, for both these "people with no criminal intent" and for people outside the US who don't have the option of just walking in on foot.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Why would/should anyone budget for people that aren't supposed to be there?

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Right. If someone is siphoning gas out of your car at night, overall, increase expenditures on gas each month, then it's ultimately your fault if you go over your gas budget because you didn't budget enough for yourself and the person stealing from you?

Again, it goes deeper than an Income Tax. Property Taxes, Federal Income Taxes and proper gauging of the actual population compounds the problem making illegals a drain on the system. (Illegals do receive public services like education, health care, emergency services, translators at public and government facilities, etc... and, in most cases, they're not fully paying their part.)

I already addressed that illegals can register for a Tax ID number which allows them to file Federal taxes. Less than 10% actually do so.

Fair enough. Can we look at how many illegals - hell, even legals, for that matter - will send their earnings back to their native countries? I read a story in one of the Washington area publications about a man who was doing this... too bad I can't submit it as evidence for it happening since you'll dismiss it as anecdotal evidence.

What we've learned in this thread: Statistics are the most reliable thing when discussing points with Laelia... even if statistics are hand-picked, skewed, run through special equations and spit out - often not even released if it doesn't back up your point. Secondly, first-hand experience doesn't mean a damn thing. Lastly, only Laelia can use anecdotal evidence, like linking articles that mention the Mayor of a city saying, "Oh, it's not that bad." (Of course not, Mayor. Last thing you should do is drive away tourism and speak ill of your city.)

If you're aware that someone is siphoning gas and you can't or don't want to stop it, then you can't just refuse to put more gas in the tank and drive around like it isn't happening - you may find yourself stranded in the middle of the highway.



The context was that Texas can't afford to provide state-level services to illegal immigrants. If they're paying the same state-level taxes as a citizen living in Texas, I don't see how that can be the case.



Ah, ok I missed that. I'm not sure where you're getting the 10% number though. However, any level of compliance with federal taxation is impressive, considering that they will never get the money they pay into Social Security back. Anyways, if this is the main problem with illegal immigration it should be easy enough to take measures to ensure more illegal immigrants do pay taxes - I assume most citizens pay their taxes, so apply the same incentives to illegals. If this means documenting and not deporting them to ensure compliance, I guess that's the logical step.



Certainly this is something else you have to account for, but money sent back to other countries may also be spent on purchasing goods exported from the US - the US is the 3rd largest export economy in the world. As I said, this is a complex issue.



Yes, I like statistics. It's hard to have a rational discussion about a factual matter of this type without them. If you want to dismiss a given set of statistics because they're biased that's fine, but give some reason for it other than the fact that they disagree with your expectations. I linked that anecdote in response to another anecdote to show how two people's experiences of the same area might be different, and after an analysis based on FBI statistics. There's nothing wrong with anecdotes as such, just don't expect them to prove your point.

So we should stop illegal immigration?

That's a valid option, although I'm not sure it's possible to completely prevent people from illegally crossing a 2000 mile border. The question is whether it's worth the effort, expense, and curtailment of civil liberties to do so.

Let's use the Arizona Law as an example: What civil liberties does it violate?

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say. There have been lawsuits filed against the law, I believe, so the courts will decide. However, a widespread crackdown could certainly involve the possibility that civil liberties would have to be violated in order to be effective. Perhaps they wouldn't, but the issue needs to be part of the debate.

If the cops just start pulling over latinos and hassling them over race, then yes, it'll violate civil liberties.

(Not that it doesn't happen ANYWAY.)

But if the cop pulls over someone who's a speeder or whatever moving violation, and asks to see a driver's license, thats normal.

If the person can't provide valid ID, then they should easily be able to move into investigating the person's legal status in this country.

so ideally this law could work, but we're only human, so it probably won't.

Did you read the law? I'm not a lawyer, either, but I did read it. Also, you're a smart person - humor me by guessing how it violates civil liberties?

I don't know nearly enough about US law to debate the matter intelligently. It's not a matter of just reading the law - you also have to know all of the other laws and case precedents regarding civil rights. Some civil rights lawyers have said there are problems with the law, which suggests to me that it's reasonable to think there might be. Beyond that I can't comment.

Bingo, Sparky, and that's exactly why Arizona is going to start asking people who get pulled over for traffic stops and/or arrested for crimes what their immigration status is. Because those guys are "siphoning gas," and Arizona is tired of breaking down on I-10 and having to walk home.


You're still only assuming, based on the types of taxes you think exist in Texas and how they are applied, that these "people with no criminal intentions" are paying the same taxes, and not somehow bypassing them the same way they bypassed a border checkpoint to come in and make themselves at home.


No, it's not that complex, so let me simplify it even more: Fuck the money. Those people aren't supposed to be here. That is a problem, and it causes bigger problems. The initial problem needs to be solved so that all the other problems that come along with it are solved as well.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

Indeed they are. Is that the best solution? What if the guy siphoning gas also happens to be your tow-truck driver?



Do you have any evidence that they aren't? There's a list of state level taxes at http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxes/ - how many illegal immigrants do you think are evading the Oyster Sales Fee?



The fact that they're present illegally is only a problem in itself if people treat it as a problem. Yes it's against the law, but people do lots of things that are against the law without causing any great harm. What are these bigger problems they're causing? There have been many unspecified claims of harm and a few specific claims in this thread, but the only problem that anyone has actually presented evidence for is the economic impact, which is indeed a very complex issue.

Ok, how bout the drug trade?