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Sounds like an ADVENTURE!

Adventure is the best way to die.

Always wished I was in good enough shape to work a crab boat once, solely for the-

...except that it's happened many, many times.

Apartheid South Africa.
The East India Company.
Jim Crow laws.
The dictatorships in Korea and Taiwan.

Reality is mutable and the life we enjoy is better because of battles for what is right that have been won.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

So, Israel maintaining their sovereignty over the years and defending themselves against the Muslims is a fight not worth fighting? Muslims have been fighting the Jews for thousands of years.

i was actually referencing current iraqi insurgency vs. us troops. i think an iraqi firing at me with an ak47 from a moped is the same way US cavalry felt when native american arrows were whistling by.

im not arguing eternal's point, i'm just saying that wars are seldom won with tanks and guns.

the only way to make the world a better place is to take humans out of the equation. sorry, but humans are ignorant and greedy creatures that are only in it for themselves.

Earth - humans = good place

You're assuming that Israeli sovereignty is being upheld by this act. In the long run, they must learn to live next to these people, forever, and get along with both their neighbors and the rest of the world. They are at least on talking terms with Egypt and Jordan so clearly things can be made to get better.

It is simply untrue that the Jews and Muslims have been actively fighting for thousands of years. If you believe this is true, substantiate it.

You overlook that Jews have lived in the region continuously since ancient times, and what forced them to leave - the Diaspora - was not fighting the Arabs or Turks or Persians but the Romans.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

You know, that really sucked for them. And shame on the Romans. But it had happened, and new people were living there.

How the hell is it fair that the UN decided to "fix it" by uprooting the people who were living there for hundreds of years (ever since the diaspora) and establishing a Jewish State in an effort to appease the Zionist movement, as well as to give some sort of compensation for the atrocities of the holocaust.


Two wrongs never make a right. Yes, the Jewish people have had to suffer greatly throughout history. However, the fact that governments just decided to put a bandaid on it in an effort to make up for mistakes made by empires years and years before is the reason why that region is still in a state of chaos to this day.

I group it with things like affirmative action. Yes, the idea behind it is noble and the intentions are all there....but simply reversing something just fucks shit up more (creates more issues), without addressing the real problem.

Since you can't correct past action, what would anyone propose the Israelis do? Right now, they control their territory surrounded by enemies. Every agreement ever made between the Israelis and Palestinians is shit on by hardliners on both sides. The Palestinians have elements among them who, encouraged and supported by other hardline Muslims, will accept nothing short of total Israeli capitulation. The Israelis have hardliners who will accept nothing short of their "divine heritage". Unfortunately, in my mind, the only way this will eventually sort itself out is when one side is totally crushed. For now, they'd both better protect themselves. Politics just don't work when it is those outside of the political process who are waging a large portion of a conflict.

And, before any of you decide you are willing to die for an important cause, why don't you stay alive and fight, instead? Once you've given your life for something, that's your last chance at changing anything. Also, I'll bet you can find plenty of issues to get furiously indignant about in your own back yard. A lot of you allow the media, and your rebellion against your upbringing, to manipulate you.

Boredalt - 80 Dwarf Priest - Dissension

Because at the time there weren't really any other options. What, tell the Jews to go home?

The problem isn't that they created Israel, it's that it was badly implemented, and more seriously, both sides forfeited opportunities to make a future, all of which has left us here. But at this point, it is Israel that is responsible for the status quo.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

I'll agree with this. Splitting the region up like they did just added extra stress to an already tense situation.

I'm not sure what the correct move should have been. I'd like to think that making it one state, with equal Palestinian and Israeli representation in government would have been a smarter move. However, how to implement such a thing, I have no idea.

The problem remains...where the heck do we go from here? How can we stop the bloodshed? It's just too much and I shudder to think of the powderkeg that that region is. If World War III ever happens, I know it will start there.

This wasn't Masada or a mass suicide. They were killed. Facing danger is not the same thing as choosing death. After all, the living hardly envy the dead, even though they respect their sacrifice.

Not so long ago, people said the same thing about the Europeans. They would never simply get along, and all bets were on some megalomaniac uniting the continent through force of arms. Obviously, that's not how it turned out. The reality is, peoples CAN learn to get along.

What should the Israelis do?
-Return to the pre-1967 lines. Forfeit holdings outside those lines if need be.
-Set up a democratic Palestinian government, and accept the vicissitudes of democracy. It is to their advantage to fight a democratic state hostile to them rather than a guerrilla war.
-Forfeit Jerusalem and refound it as a free city. Invite the UN or US or EU in to police it.
-Treat terrorism as organized crime to be handled surgically, and not as a military problem. They have the technology to maintain aerial surveillance on the tiny area in question, and pick the active terrorists out of the populace like fleas from a dog.
-Establish public and private enterprises to give the Palestinians jobs. Establish labor laws putting them on equal footing with their own citizens. Crack down on labor exploitation.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

i know very little about the whole situation, but my question is: why are there so few islamic governments/groups supporting palestine? the majority of the world's land and population are muslim, they don't want palestinians?

Or, Israel could keep their country and just beat the shit out of anyone who doesn't like it. Regardless how you feel, it is Israel; it is their country.

Great points, all of them. But sadly, because of the mass resurgence of radical nationalism and conservatism in the Israeli government, the problem is only going to get worse from here on out.



Generally I'd prefer not to die for a cause (and I assume most people don't), but if it happens - it's worthwhile.

A couple do, but they're instantly branded anti-Semitic and get screwed over by the west until they re-nig or go 'renegade'.

It's this whole, Israel is immune to criticism because of the holocaust deal-i-o. It still doesn't justify the human rights violations they continue to perpetrate and that the west turns a blind eye to. The US too, continues to fund and train the Israeli army - are we truly better than organizations such as Hamas/Ahmadinejad's regime when we fund state-run terrorism?