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yeah i noticed.

you pretty much said they should retreat, establish the palestinians in their own gov't, and let the UN handle the policing.

I can see several ways this could go poorly.

What would go wrong?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Well the UN consistantly fucks up. In this case they'd surely favor the Israeli's too much so they aren't called antisemites, which would grate on the palestinians because it would seem that nothing has changed.

besides, a police state in this area is just ASKING for bloodshed on equal or larger scale.

retreat makes the people you were fighting bolder. if anything, I can see the violence escalating, and it would be closer to home for the israelis.


the palestinian government thing might help though.

It's not just running away. It's settling on a line and saying, "This is it, and this is it because it was the original agreement." Being reasonable and showing that you are willing to make a sacrifice for peace pacifies the other side because it enhances credibility. Being able to unilaterally impose peace is a show of strength, not weakness.

Nothing frustrates and isolates extremists like placating the middle.

I am not advocating a police state; I am saying that the police force should be foreigners. Ideally the city government would be some sort of borough system. In any event, EVERY country in the Middle East is some sort of police state.

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Being reasonable only matters if you're dealing with other reasonable people.


I have seen no evidence of anyone in the middle east being reasonable.

ie iran.

Isn't it reasonable to be angry if your land is taken and your people are humiliated and abused?

Isn't it reasonable a nation seeks to ensure it is not attacked?

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

sure, but both sides think it's their land.

both sides think their people are humiliated and abused

both sides seek to ensure they are not attacked.

The last time the Jews were abused was 70 fucking years ago, and they're still using it as a shield to be as big cocksuckers as the SS they're constantly reminding us about.

I have sympathy for genocide survivors. I have no sympathy for murderous hypocrites.

If destruction exists, we must destroy everything.
Shuruppak Yuratuhl
Slaad Shrpk Breizh

Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, but mainly who is wrong, since neither parties have done much right, I still tend to blame the entire 70 or 80 years of absolute fuckerization on Europeans. If they hadn't have been both so eager to "get rid of the Jews," a little habit dating back to at least the Reconquista, and so guilty about it in light of the holocaust, there wouldn't a buttload of Jews there and this would be a moot point anyway.

Both sides have done some nutty stupid shit. That is not the point.

The point is this: This fleet of "peaceful activists" were not peaceful activists. At least a significant minority of those involved set out on this little "mission of peace" in order to insight violence for the sole purpose of using the results of their actions as propaganda against their political military opponent.

Someone asked why Israel would do this "to Turkey." My question is, if Turkey, as an informed party, allowed this convoy to set sail knowing what it knew about at least the stated intentions of those aboard, why was it doing this "to Israel?"

Israel offered a port for the cargo to be docked for inspection. They offered assistance in transporting legitimate aid goods into Gaza. They were being reasonable. Not complying with Israel's demand that the flotilla deliver to a specific port, especially in light of a naval blockade and the events leading up to the Gaza occupation/lockdown, was not reasonable, and worse intentionally done to create an incident.

The assertion that they "don't allow concrete into Gaza" is fallacious. According to the Israeli ambassador I saw on the news this weekend, Israel allows concrete into Gaza, but only if it is attached to an approved repair/build project. This is because the aggressive force in Gaza uses concrete in some manner or another in the construction of the rockets, mortars, and bombs that they use against Israel. I choose to believe this. If you don't, that's understandable. I just choose to believe that if any aid good is tied up in any type of red tape, it's not because one human being wants another to suffer.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste

What the "palestinians" "suffer" at the hands of the Israel is not comparable to the Jewish experience.

Even if Israel went to the 1967 borders, what would happen if some Hamas jerkoff blows up a bus or starts shelling Israeli homes?

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

fixed

Its not like the Palestinians have done anything but start shit with Israel. They elected a political party that advocated the destruction of Israel as a state and then they run off and shoot duct-taped rockets at Israeli homes.

Granted, the reaction is a little harsh, but all that they're doing is giving Israel provocation (and some credibility) to continue what they're doing.

RETIRED.
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Mayonaise[/armory]
[armory loc="US,Bleeding Hollow"]Jerkonaise[/armory]

Kill him.



Except that's not quite true. The Palestinians are a people. It is individuals, or members of organizations, that have committed acts of violence. Collective punishment isn't just unjust, it's also self-defeating. Attitudes can change over time, but antagonizing the entire populace only deepens hatred and strengthens the extremists - all of which has left us here.

Yes, they elected Hamas - which said it would govern and coexist with Israel. This wasn't good enough for Israel, and they refused to work with them.



You do not understand Jewish history at all.

The Crusades has no bearing on what has happened, and the Diaspora occurred over a thousand years before. Don't talk about what you have absolutely no knowledge of.

If you want, you can go read some good books about the migrations of the Jews and such; I'll be happy to suggest some.



That is the point. Evil can be enforced only by violence.



What's your explanation - why do you think the Turks allowed this?



It's a fundamentally unreasonable request. They have no right to take control of the delivery of civilian goods. How would you feel if the Chinese decided to blockade our ports because of a disagreement?



Because he says it, it must be true!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8068864.stm

Aestu of Bleeding Hollow...

Nihilism is a copout.

Nearly as unsurprising the obligatory Aestu BBC link is this:



I'm fairly certain no one anywhere in this thread mentioned the Crusades or Diaspora. If you wish to make assertions about what people do or do not know, you might want to address what they've actually said and not what the little voices in your head are telling you they said. It's hard to take someone seriously when they're so far removed from reality that they're arguing against points that no one has even attempted to make.

Your Pal,
Jubber

AKA "The Gun"
AKA "ROFeraL"

World Renowned Mexican Forklift Artiste