Aestu's Fireside Discussion: Jewish Edition

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:29 am

You made mention of the Reconquista as being relevant in the historical process. My point was that you should not make references to minor historical events when you clearly don't understand the actual process.

In any event, did I not prove that, in fact, there is not concrete in Gaza? Yet do you not believe otherwise - why?

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:39 am

Aestu wrote:

You made mention of the Reconquista as being relevant in the historical process. My point was that you should not make references to minor historical events when you clearly don't understand the actual process.

The assertion that the Reconquista is "minor" historical event is merely an assertion on your part. Further, I'm sure Spanish scholars in particular would disagree about how "minor" an event it was.

Aestu wrote:

In any event, did I not prove that, in fact, there is not concrete in Gaza? Yet do you not believe otherwise - why?

I'm sorry, but what you find to be evidence is clearly biased information, even if the BBC says otherwise. I'm not sure you would expect me to find it believable.

Your Pal,
Jubber

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:56 am

You're not a Spanish history scholar and we're not talking about Spanish history. In fact you know very little about history in general, which is my point, that you shouldn't make reference to historical events as if doing so proves your reasoning correct, because you know very little about the process.

How is a series of photographs of people making homes out of mud bricks more biased than some guy standing on a stage making a claim that happens to be favorable to his side yet contrary to the prevailing consensus?

quadtard · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:09 am

Aestu wrote:

Mayonaise wrote:

Even if Israel went to the 1967 borders, what would happen if some Hamas jerkoff blows up a bus or starts shelling Israeli homes?

Kill him.

And the few hundred innocents who also share the same apartment building he shot the rocket from?

Mayonaise wrote:

Its not like the Palestinians have done anything but start shit with Israel. They elected a political party that advocated the destruction of Israel as a state and then they run off and shoot duct-taped rockets at Israeli homes

Except that's not quite true. The Palestinians are a people. It is individuals, or members of organizations, that have committed acts of violence. Collective punishment isn't just unjust, it's also self-defeating. Attitudes can change over time, but antagonizing the entire populace only deepens hatred and strengthens the extremists - all of which has left us here.

Yes, they elected Hamas - which said it would govern and coexist with Israel. This wasn't good enough for Israel, and they refused to work with them.

Jubbergun wrote:

Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, but mainly who is wrong, since neither parties have done much right, I still tend to blame the entire 70 or 80 years of absolute fuckerization on Europeans. If they hadn't have been both so eager to "get rid of the Jews," a little habit dating back to at least the Reconquista, and so guilty about it in light of the holocaust, there wouldn't a buttload of Jews there and this would be a moot point anyway.

You do not understand Jewish history at all.

The Crusades has no bearing on what has happened, and the Diaspora occurred over a thousand years before. Don't talk about what you have absolutely no knowledge of.

If you want, you can go read some good books about the migrations of the Jews and such; I'll be happy to suggest some.

Jubbergun wrote:

The point is this: This fleet of "peaceful activists" were not peaceful activists. At least a significant minority of those involved set out on this little "mission of peace" in order to insight violence for the sole purpose of using the results of their actions as propaganda against their political military opponent.

That is the point. Evil can be enforced only by violence.

Jubbergun wrote:

Someone asked why Israel would do this "to Turkey." My question is, if Turkey, as an informed party, allowed this convoy to set sail knowing what it knew about at least the stated intentions of those aboard, why was it doing this "to Israel?"

What's your explanation - why do you think the Turks allowed this?

Jubbergun wrote:

Israel offered a port for the cargo to be docked for inspection. They offered assistance in transporting legitimate aid goods into Gaza. They were being reasonable. Not complying with Israel's demand that the flotilla deliver to a specific port, especially in light of a naval blockade and the events leading up to the Gaza occupation/lockdown, was not reasonable, and worse intentionally done to create an incident.

It's a fundamentally unreasonable request. They have no right to take control of the delivery of civilian goods. How would you feel if the Chinese decided to blockade our ports because of a disagreement?

Jubbergun wrote:

The assertion that they "don't allow concrete into Gaza" is fallacious. According to the Israeli ambassador I saw on the news this weekend, Israel allows concrete into Gaza, but only if it is attached to an approved repair/build project. This is because the aggressive force in Gaza uses concrete in some manner or another in the construction of the rockets, mortars, and bombs that they use against Israel. I choose to believe this. If you don't, that's understandable. I just choose to believe that if any aid good is tied up in any type of red tape, it's not because one human being wants another to suffer.r

Because he says it, it must be true!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8068864.stm

double post, could you clean this up mayo? tx

Mns · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:14 am

Aestu wrote:

Yes, they elected Hamas - which said it would govern and coexist with Israel. This wasn't good enough for Israel, and they refused to work with them.

Alright, you've lost me.

quadtard · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:16 am

Aestu wrote:

Mayonaise wrote:

Even if Israel went to the 1967 borders, what would happen if some Hamas jerkoff blows up a bus or starts shelling Israeli homes?

Kill him.

Mayonaise wrote:

Its not like the Palestinians have done anything but start shit with Israel. They elected a political party that advocated the destruction of Israel as a state and then they run off and shoot duct-taped rockets at Israeli homes

Except that's not quite true. The Palestinians are a people. It is individuals, or members of organizations, that have committed acts of violence. Collective punishment isn't just unjust, it's also self-defeating. Attitudes can change over time, but antagonizing the entire populace only deepens hatred and strengthens the extremists - all of which has left us here.

Yes, they elected Hamas - which said it would govern and coexist with Israel. This wasn't good enough for Israel, and they refused to work with them.

Jubbergun wrote:

Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, but mainly who is wrong, since neither parties have done much right, I still tend to blame the entire 70 or 80 years of absolute fuckerization on Europeans. If they hadn't have been both so eager to "get rid of the Jews," a little habit dating back to at least the Reconquista, and so guilty about it in light of the holocaust, there wouldn't a buttload of Jews there and this would be a moot point anyway.

You do not understand Jewish history at all.

The Crusades has no bearing on what has happened, and the Diaspora occurred over a thousand years before. Don't talk about what you have absolutely no knowledge of.

If you want, you can go read some good books about the migrations of the Jews and such; I'll be happy to suggest some.

Jubbergun wrote:

The point is this: This fleet of "peaceful activists" were not peaceful activists. At least a significant minority of those involved set out on this little "mission of peace" in order to insight violence for the sole purpose of using the results of their actions as propaganda against their political military opponent.

That is the point. Evil can be enforced only by violence.

Jubbergun wrote:

Someone asked why Israel would do this "to Turkey." My question is, if Turkey, as an informed party, allowed this convoy to set sail knowing what it knew about at least the stated intentions of those aboard, why was it doing this "to Israel?"

What's your explanation - why do you think the Turks allowed this?

Jubbergun wrote:

Israel offered a port for the cargo to be docked for inspection. They offered assistance in transporting legitimate aid goods into Gaza. They were being reasonable. Not complying with Israel's demand that the flotilla deliver to a specific port, especially in light of a naval blockade and the events leading up to the Gaza occupation/lockdown, was not reasonable, and worse intentionally done to create an incident.

It's a fundamentally unreasonable request. They have no right to take control of the delivery of civilian goods. How would you feel if the Chinese decided to blockade our ports because of a disagreement?

Jubbergun wrote:

The assertion that they "don't allow concrete into Gaza" is fallacious. According to the Israeli ambassador I saw on the news this weekend, Israel allows concrete into Gaza, but only if it is attached to an approved repair/build project. This is because the aggressive force in Gaza uses concrete in some manner or another in the construction of the rockets, mortars, and bombs that they use against Israel. I choose to believe this. If you don't, that's understandable. I just choose to believe that if any aid good is tied up in any type of red tape, it's not because one human being wants another to suffer.r

Because he says it, it must be true!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8068864.stm

and the few hundred innocent civvies the rocketeer is hiding behind?

As for hamas, it is historically a terrorist group, which like many, talks out of its ass and then does something else entirely. If al Qeada was elected to saudi arabia, what would the US government do?

lol@you telling jubber he has no knowledge of history, and mentioning other things, i dont understand that at all. Reconquista and crusades very major points in jewish history. If you want to know some more about early history, read the book constantine's sword. Its a history of the catholic church, which is invariably related to the history of jews. Many parts where people litterally sat down at a table and said "Lets blame the jews" There is one point where the church decides to keep the jews around, but in misery, as an example to others of the benefits/glory of being catholic. That was very early on, 7th century iirc. Dont talk about something you have no knowledge about.

TBH, i wouldnt think the turks knew about it, easy to say were going to X and bringing X and turn around and do something else.

How is it an unreasonable request if it would prevent violence/conflict and still have the aid reach the intended people.

Mud has long been a strong building material in these regions, sure it sounds bad my modern standards, but when it dries it is a great building tool. It doesnt break down because it hardly rains there. Also, because the BBC says it, it must be true, and because theres one example, it must be true for everyone!

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:26 am

quadtard wrote:

and the few hundred innocent civvies the rocketeer is hiding behind?

It's not that simple. Tag the person and remove him surgically. It is more important to win the peace than to win the war. To simply remove militants, at any cost, will only ensure the fighting continues forever, which isn't to Israel's benefit either.

quadtard wrote:

As for hamas, it is historically a terrorist group, which like many, talks out of its ass and then does something else entirely. If al Qeada was elected to saudi arabia, what would the US government do?

A terrorist group is whatever is so designated by the State Department. Libya was a terrorist organization for decades after shooting down a passenger jet in the 70s; with the stroke of a pen they became our allies. The Saudi ruling family has given aid to al Qaeda; Hamas has not - and they are our allies. How can you say that engaging Hamas would be any more dangerous, given that the alternative - to refuse to do so - has already proven more bloody?

quadtard wrote:

lol@you telling jubber he has no knowledge of history, and mentioning other things, i dont understand that at all. Reconquista and crusades very major points in jewish history. If you want to know some more about early history, read the book constantine's sword. Its a history of the catholic church, which is invariably related to the history of jews. Many parts where people litterally sat down at a table and said "Lets blame the jews" There is one point where the church decides to keep the jews around, but in misery, as an example to others of the benefits/glory of being catholic. That was very early on, 7th century iirc. Dont talk about something you have no knowledge about.

What does that have to do with anything?

quadtard wrote:

TBH, i wouldnt think the turks knew about it, easy to say were going to X and bringing X and turn around and do something else.

What makes you say that?

quadtard wrote:

How is it an unreasonable request if it would prevent violence/conflict and still have the aid reach the intended people.

Because obviously it isn't working. They are still fighting these people. And they will continue to for centuries to come unless they find a way out.

quadtard wrote:

Mud has long been a strong building material in these regions, sure it sounds bad my modern standards, but when it dries it is a great building tool. It doesnt break down because it hardly rains there. Also, because the BBC says it, it must be true, and because theres one example, it must be true for everyone!

You could make the same argument about Westerners - you know, we've lived in thatched huts for millenia before we started using concrete, we still have stories from Tacitus about how the Germans lived in homes literally made of shit, Native Americans managed to live in what is today Sacramento without air conditioning even through brutal 100+ summers. Is that reasonable, though? Why should we force these people to live like that?

There are PICTURES of them building the house. Do you think that's all staged or what?

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:26 am

You know, before the name of the thread changed, I was just wondering what the "heh heh heh" of the robotic president in Fallout actually sounded like.

Mns · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:28 am

Aestu wrote:

You know, before the name of the thread changed, I was just wondering what the "heh heh heh" of the robotic president in Fallout actually sounded like.

I thought the new title is much more fitting.

All in good fun though <3

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:46 am

Welcome to FUBU: Where trolling is prevented by putting all the NON-drama threads in their own sub-forum.

And it works.

Jubbergun · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:50 am

Aestu wrote:

You're not a Spanish history scholar and we're not talking about Spanish history.

My background doesn't negate the importance of the Reconquista, any more than your opinion on the subject does anything to relegate it to the status of historical unimportance...even if I get a BBC citation saying otherwise.

Aestu wrote:

In fact you know very little about history in general, which is my point, that you shouldn't make reference to historical events as if doing so proves your reasoning correct, because you know very little about the process.

What you know about what I know could fill a thimble. You have no idea of the stringent educational requirements involved in becoming a World-Class Mexican Forklift Artiste. It comes as no surprise that when you run out of BBC links and your misdirections fail to actually misdirect anyone that you have to resort to "you're dumb and don't know anything" ad hominen jabs.

Quote:

How is a series of photographs of people making homes out of mud bricks more biased than some guy standing on a stage making a claim that happens to be favorable to his side yet contrary to the prevailing consensus?

With the context of the initial topic of conversation involving groups of people attempting to instigate acts of violence in order to use those acts as propaganda, it would be unwise to assume that any evidence pointing to Israel and its representatives as bad actors should not be taken with a grain of salt.
Why does concrete have to be an issue in the first place? Concrete is not the only resource in the world that can be turned into housing, and if one were concerned with the embargo and truly in a hurry to rush supplies to those in need one would forget concrete and supply prefab units, or wood and nails at the very least.

Your Pal,
Jubber

Aestu · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:53 am

Ok. So enlighten me.

How is the Reconquista relevant?
Upon what basis do you believe you are informed about the history of the region?
Why should we second-guess this series of photographs?

Needhelp · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:47 pm

Mayonaise wrote:

Aestu wrote:

Yes, they elected Hamas - which said it would govern and coexist with Israel. This wasn't good enough for Israel, and they refused to work with them.

Alright, you've lost me.

I've been lost since page 3.

Mns · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:17 pm

Hey, look at this, it looks like they took pictures of themselves beating the shit out of the Israelis and were so proud of it they posted it on a turkish website.

http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/Galer ... &p=1&rid=2

EDIT: Of course, these are all fakes created by the IDF as propaganda machines.

Eturnalshift · **Posted:** Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:59 pm

Aestu wrote:

You're not a Spanish history scholar and we're not talking about Spanish history. In fact you know very little about history in general, which is my point, that you shouldn't make reference to historical events as if doing so proves your reasoning correct, because you know very little about the process.

Are you a Spanish history scholar... or even a scholar in middle east relations? You read a couple books. o/

Reading books and being stupid just produces a well-read stupid person. Just sayin'...

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